Scale G Major on a D whistle?

[trekkie]

I am trying to understand how it is possible to play the scale of G major on a D whistle. Totally confused. The only thing I do understand is that the C is natural not sharp. I have the Mary Bergin Tutorial but I am missing something.

[dubrosa22]

The difference between D Major and G Major is one sharp less. Instead of C# play a Cnat.
On most whistles to play a Cnat the fingering is:

OXX OOO
Lefthand second and third fingers down/covering holes.
On some whistles it is OXO OOO (just lefthand second finger down/covering).

Then start the scale on G.

V

[s1m0n]

G xxx ooo
A xxo ooo
B xoo ooo
C oxx ooo
D oxx xxx
E xxx xxo
F# xxx xoo

[nicx66]

I think Mary always half-holes the C natural so that you can hit it in the second octave, whereas oxx ooo and the like generally will only sound it in the first (lower) octave

[pancelticpiper]

Every size whistle gives two Major keys, one based on the bellnote or "six finger note" and one based on the 4th degree or "three finger note".

The "three finger note" Major scale will always have one less sharp, or one more flat, than the "six finger note" scale.

You take away the sharp or add the flat by using a flat 7th fingering

oxx ooo (or) oxx oox (or) oxx xox (in the low octave)

oxo xxx (in the 2nd octave)

Bellnote Major key > 4th degree Major key

D > G
C > F
Bb > Eb
Eb > Ab

etc.

All things being equal, I generally prefer playing a Major key based on the 4th rather than the bellnote, but the range of the specific tune will dictate whether you use a D or an A whistle for D Major, an A or an E whistle for A Major, etc.

[s1m0n]

Six out of the seven notes that make up the key of D major also belong to the key of G major. As it happens, the one different note, (in this case C vs C#) is one that can be cleanly played with a simple change in fingering*. This is also true of whistles in other keys. In fact, any tin whistle can be said to have 2 'native' keys, keys that can be played cleanly and at speed with slightly different fingering for one note. For a D whistle the 2 keys are D/G, for a C whistle its C/F, for an A whistle it's A/D, etc. This is a basic fact of whistledom, and in fact of simple system fluting in general. Several folks, me included, have posted what might seem like cryptic answers to your question. I'm now trying to be more explicit. Is this making sense?

*oxx ooo (Cnat) versus ooo ooo (C#). The two fingerings produce notes a semitone apart, which is enough to change the key.

[s1m0n]

I think Mary always half-holes the C natural so that you can hit it in the second octave, whereas oxx ooo and the like generally will only sound it in the first (lower) octave

It works for me in both octaves. It's only in the third octave that this breaks down and oxx ooo yields d" rather than c".

[trekkie]

Thanks for helping me sort this out. For some reason I thought it was more complicated.

[s1m0n]

There's nothing to be embarrassed about. From afar, music theory is mysterious and cryptic, but every new fact you learn - and we all learned them one by one, just as you are - illuminates a few more details. You don't need to know theory to play whistle and play it well, but if that's your style of mind, when you ask a similar question you'll get a theory answer.

[s1m0n]

All things being equal, I generally prefer playing a Major key based on the 4th rather than the bellnote, ...

That's interesting. Out of everyone on this site, I'd suppose that you, playing as you do in recording sessions, etc., must be most conscious of the clarity and pitch of your sound. In my experience, the flat seventh produces a darker scale, but you say you prefer it. This isn't an attack - as the romans said, taste isn't debatable - but I'd like to understand the basis of your judgements. Can you elaborate?

[benhall.1]

I think Mary always half-holes the C natural so that you can hit it in the second octave, whereas oxx ooo and the like generally will only sound it in the first (lower) octave

It works for me in both octaves. It's only in the third octave that this breaks down and oxx ooo yields d" rather than c".

No. That can't be the case. The first octave 0xx 000 gives Cnat; in the next octave up, ie the second octave, 0xx 000 yields d (it happens to be the third octave d, but you can't get a second octave c using that fingering). You can't get an octave above that on a whistle. There is no third octave c.

[pancelticpiper]

It might just be a different way of referencing the notes.

Coming from Irish flute, one might consider the 'first octave C' to be the note below Bottom D done with the footjoint C key, the 'second octave C' the one played oxx ooo and the 'third octave C' the one played oxo xxx.

I would call the oxx ooo C and the oxx xxx D "middle C" and "middle D" respectively though of course it's at variance with what "middle C" means on the piano. "Bottom D" and "low C" would for me be the lowest notes of the flute, "high C" and "high D" the notes at the top of the 2nd octave, though of course they're an octave lower than the notes called that on the Boehm flute (which are the 4th C and 4th D the Boehm flute is capable of).

There's probably a large number of different ways people name these notes.

About C natural, the crossfingered note gives me the most agility in complex passages, and the tone colour is special. Being that I played Irish flute for many years, play uilleann pipes, and used to be a Baroque flute player, the crossfingered C is part of a shared technique of all those instruments.

If a whistle is made right the crossfingered C is precisely in tune.

[Mr.Gumby]

Being that I played Irish flute for many years, play uilleann pipes, and used to be a Baroque flute player, the crossfingered C is part of a shared technique of all those instruments.

That's a personal perspective though. There are also a good few pipers who play the whistle using half holed C naturals. Willie Clancy for one is a great example of the use of the piper's C on the chanter, yet there are many instances in his whistle playing where he is clearly using a half holed note. So yes, it can be a shared technique but it doesn't follow it always is or is always the preferred way from one player to the next or that you will have to choose to use one over the other.

[benhall.1]

Coming from Irish flute, one might consider the 'first octave C' to be the note below Bottom D done with the footjoint C key, the 'second octave C' the one played oxx ooo and the 'third octave C' the one played oxo xxx.

Yes, but on a D whistle, you can't play "the note below bottom D" so the fingering oxx ooo for Cnat can't "work in both octaves". There's only one octave it will work in.

[tstermitz]

I've been working recently a lot more with the cross-fingered C-nat, 0x0xxx suggested by pancelticpiper, partly because I'm learning flute, where that fingering offers a much better tone than 0xx000; the tone it offers on my whistles is either okay or better. On some whistles, my old Generation for example, the 0xx000 is a bit sharp.

I am discovering several benefits from the cross-fingered C-nat, some of which pancelticpiper has been talking about.

(0) It makes it easier to go back and forth to flute.
(1) Certain note sequences are easier.
(2) The C-nat roll works really well out of this fingering.
(3) Now that I have more practice at the cross-fingered C-nat, my fingers are finding it easier to play the cross-fingered G#: xx0xxx, and cross-fingered A# isn't out of the question. Half-holing those notes is still faster for me, but the cross-fingering is a little more stable.
(4) Now all I need is an Eb key for my flute!

I originally learned Recorder (many, many years ago), so cross fingering is not weird, and probably stored in my primordial brain somewhere.

On my flute, the 0x0xxx works fine for the third register C-nat. On whistle the half-hole 0%0000 seems to work easier and faster. Yes, I think of it as third register, probably because of my origins on the Recorder which has the lower "C-foot" notes.