D whistle Fnat thumb hole.
- narrowdog
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D whistle Fnat thumb hole.
In our ceilidh band our melodeon player writes a lot of our tunes for dances, the only problem is they tend to change key from A parts to B parts usually from G to Dm or Dm to G
Yes I know I could half hole the F nat but at speed playing EFG FEF as an example I can't get the accuracy on the F, this really showed up recently when we were doing some recording and I had to use a C whistle on the Dm parts. Not an option when playing a gig.
So I'm thinking F nat thumb hole.
I can do this myself but just need pointing in the right direction as to where to start, basically where to put it.
All help will be greatfully recieved
Yes I know I could half hole the F nat but at speed playing EFG FEF as an example I can't get the accuracy on the F, this really showed up recently when we were doing some recording and I had to use a C whistle on the Dm parts. Not an option when playing a gig.
So I'm thinking F nat thumb hole.
I can do this myself but just need pointing in the right direction as to where to start, basically where to put it.
All help will be greatfully recieved
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- DrPhill
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Re: D whistle Fnat thumb hole.
On the back?
Probably centred exactly half way between the adjacent holes. I have heard that the ideal position id awkward to cover (Phil Bleazey)....
TWJCalc may help a little. If you enter the measurements for the whistle until you get an approximate match, then add a new hole. Play with the size.....
I am not an expert (and have not used TWJCalc for a while), so this exercise may not yield much info - but it wont ruin a whistle.
Good luck
Probably centred exactly half way between the adjacent holes. I have heard that the ideal position id awkward to cover (Phil Bleazey)....
TWJCalc may help a little. If you enter the measurements for the whistle until you get an approximate match, then add a new hole. Play with the size.....
I am not an expert (and have not used TWJCalc for a while), so this exercise may not yield much info - but it wont ruin a whistle.
Good luck
Phill
One does not equal two. Not even for very large values of one.
One does not equal two. Not even for very large values of one.
- narrowdog
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Re: D whistle Fnat thumb hole.
Thanks for that DrPhill
I couldn't remember the name of TWJCalc.
I expected it to be somewhere there so I'll just have to get used to it. It's only for a couple of tunes so it's not like I need it for a whole gig.
I couldn't remember the name of TWJCalc.
I expected it to be somewhere there so I'll just have to get used to it. It's only for a couple of tunes so it's not like I need it for a whole gig.
Happiness is taking things as they are.
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Re: D whistle Fnat thumb hole.
Wouldn't it just be easier to smack your melodeon player?
- narrowdog
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Re: D whistle Fnat thumb hole.
When I'm trying to learn a 48 bar jig that goes from Am to Dm back to Am with G# accidentals then finishes in Am it's crossed my mind, but they are great tunes and fit the dances perfectly.awildman wrote:Wouldn't it just be easier to smack your melodeon player?
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Re: D whistle Fnat thumb hole.
Mary Bergin suggests an excellent exercise for half holed notes, C nat, F nat, and G# probably being the most common. Try transitioning from each note on the whistle to the Fnat, individually, i.e. B>F A>F G>F F#>F E>F D>F C#>F C>F . Once you get comfortable with that, try it sequentially, i.e. B>F>A>F>G>F>F#>F>E>F>D>F>C#>F>C>F. Once you are comfortable with that, you can try more complex transitions and such. Good luck!
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Re: D whistle Fnat thumb hole.
Wow if I was in the position of playing this highly chromatic stuff my knee-jerk reaction would be to switch to Kaval or keyed flute/piccolo.
There are vintage instruments called Flageolets which are wooden whistles, fully keyed like a keyed wooden flute.
Here's one, you can see it works like a whistle, but you have keys for all the chromatic notes
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-2jQHSh ... hRSfw#t=29
Here's a set with whistle/flageolet head, and piccolo head
Or you could put a whistle head on a piccolo body, probably.
Though through sheer practice you could probably get very good at half-holing. I heard an Asturian piper play loads of tunes with that minor 3rd, the equivalent to your F natural, half-holing them with astonishing speed and accuracy. It sounded like he had a hole drilled for that note. I saw his pipes, he did not. It was just skill. (The Asturian pipes can't crossfinger the minor 3rd like the Galician pipes do.)
About Kavals, a D Kaval gives you, in the same range as a D Irish whistle, these notes, with no crossfingering or half-holing necessary, all of these notes having dedicated finger-holes:
(be aware that a D tinwhistle's lowest note is actually the "D2" of this chart.)
There are vintage instruments called Flageolets which are wooden whistles, fully keyed like a keyed wooden flute.
Here's one, you can see it works like a whistle, but you have keys for all the chromatic notes
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-2jQHSh ... hRSfw#t=29
Here's a set with whistle/flageolet head, and piccolo head
Or you could put a whistle head on a piccolo body, probably.
Though through sheer practice you could probably get very good at half-holing. I heard an Asturian piper play loads of tunes with that minor 3rd, the equivalent to your F natural, half-holing them with astonishing speed and accuracy. It sounded like he had a hole drilled for that note. I saw his pipes, he did not. It was just skill. (The Asturian pipes can't crossfinger the minor 3rd like the Galician pipes do.)
About Kavals, a D Kaval gives you, in the same range as a D Irish whistle, these notes, with no crossfingering or half-holing necessary, all of these notes having dedicated finger-holes:
(be aware that a D tinwhistle's lowest note is actually the "D2" of this chart.)
Richard Cook
c1980 Quinn uilleann pipes
1945 Starck Highland pipes
Goldie Low D whistle
c1980 Quinn uilleann pipes
1945 Starck Highland pipes
Goldie Low D whistle
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Re: D whistle Fnat thumb hole.
Live your life so that, if it was a book, Florida would ban it.
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Re: D whistle Fnat thumb hole.
I watched a TV program with a truly exceptional Japanese Shakuhachi player - I've never heard anything similar from any other player (I've not seen that many players though, but nothing I've heard sounds like that guy). He demonstrated how he played the Shakuhachi as a chromatic instrument, with half- and quarter holing, to be honest I'm not sure exactly what he did, but the Shakuhachi has only four holes plus a thumb hole. It's a tricky beast to play.
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Re: D whistle Fnat thumb hole.
Yes exactly, if I was doing those gigs I'd get one of them O Brien Whistle things. If it's Boehm system, I'd prefer that O Brien head on a Simple System piccolo body.
Though I do wonder if a Low D whistle could be made with the Kaval-style fingerhole arrangement- it would have to be a rather narrow-bore Low D, because you're playing in the 2nd and 3rd registers the whole time.
Though I do wonder if a Low D whistle could be made with the Kaval-style fingerhole arrangement- it would have to be a rather narrow-bore Low D, because you're playing in the 2nd and 3rd registers the whole time.
Richard Cook
c1980 Quinn uilleann pipes
1945 Starck Highland pipes
Goldie Low D whistle
c1980 Quinn uilleann pipes
1945 Starck Highland pipes
Goldie Low D whistle
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Re: D whistle Fnat thumb hole.
Just a technical reply on the "d minor" point.
In folk music (whether English/Irish/Scottish) we tend to be a bit loose about the use of the word "minor". Loose and usually incorrect.
I have to keep reminding myself of these things. We often talk of E minor and A minor, when in fact we mean E dorian and A dorian; I know, it's easy to do. Though I've mostly stopped my self doing it these days, I still get people in sessions and band members referring to minors when they mean dorian. No wonder guitar players get so mixed up and new ones get things wrong.
This is true of the vast majority of trad tunes that we play that sound a bit "minor".
I could try go into all the technicalities, but I'm not the best person to do that. This is a pretty good page dealing with the whole modal thing:
http://slowplayers.org/modes-keys/
btw. You could replace every mention of Irish or ITM (Irish traditional music ... not a contraction I'm too fond of) with "English" or "English traditional music" and every word of the article is still correct.
So, what you are playing in is D dorian not D minor, confirmed by the fact you can play the tune on a C whistle ie. F natural, but also B natural not flat as it would be in D minor.
PS. someone often comes in with the argument that a particular tune simply leaves out the B/B♭ so the tune could be D minor or dorian. My point would be that the starting point for most of the "minor" tunes in the tradition is dorian, and also that just because a version (or manuscript) of the tune leaves out the B doesn't mean that every other one does.
* I did go into a load of Melodeon based musings, but this is a whistle forum.
In folk music (whether English/Irish/Scottish) we tend to be a bit loose about the use of the word "minor". Loose and usually incorrect.
I have to keep reminding myself of these things. We often talk of E minor and A minor, when in fact we mean E dorian and A dorian; I know, it's easy to do. Though I've mostly stopped my self doing it these days, I still get people in sessions and band members referring to minors when they mean dorian. No wonder guitar players get so mixed up and new ones get things wrong.
This is true of the vast majority of trad tunes that we play that sound a bit "minor".
I could try go into all the technicalities, but I'm not the best person to do that. This is a pretty good page dealing with the whole modal thing:
http://slowplayers.org/modes-keys/
btw. You could replace every mention of Irish or ITM (Irish traditional music ... not a contraction I'm too fond of) with "English" or "English traditional music" and every word of the article is still correct.
So, what you are playing in is D dorian not D minor, confirmed by the fact you can play the tune on a C whistle ie. F natural, but also B natural not flat as it would be in D minor.
PS. someone often comes in with the argument that a particular tune simply leaves out the B/B♭ so the tune could be D minor or dorian. My point would be that the starting point for most of the "minor" tunes in the tradition is dorian, and also that just because a version (or manuscript) of the tune leaves out the B doesn't mean that every other one does.
* I did go into a load of Melodeon based musings, but this is a whistle forum.
Andrew Wigglesworth
http://www.greenmanrising.co.uk
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Re: D whistle Fnat thumb hole.
Or E Aeolian and A Aeolian. Or other modes. You're just adding to the confusion by equating 'minory' modal with Dorian.ecadre wrote:We often talk of E minor and A minor, when in fact we mean E dorian and A dorian; I know, it's easy to do.
Since tunes sometimes also include the note that defines them as Aeolian rather than Dorian, my point still stands.PS. someone often comes in with the argument that a particular tune simply leaves out the B/B♭ so the tune could be D minor or dorian. My point would be that the starting point for most of the "minor" tunes in the tradition is dorian, and also that just because a version (or manuscript) of the tune leaves out the B doesn't mean that every other one does.
- narrowdog
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Re: D whistle Fnat thumb hole.
Just for clarification I've looked at the dots for Grassholm
A part is in Dm with one flat the B.
B part is in Em with one sharp the F
Here's the ABC for those interested
X:1
T:Grassholm
M:4/4
L:1/8
K:Dm
D4 d2EF|G2F2 E2F2|D2d2 d2c=B|c4 c4|
d2D2 D2de|f2e2 d2e2|d2A2 d2fe|d4 d4:|
K:Em
e2B2 A2B2|A2B2 e4|b2c'2 b2a2|g2f2 e2d2|
e2e2 B2B2|e2e2 g4|1B2A2 B2d2|e4 e4:|2B2A2 F2G2|E4 E4|
Edit to sort B nat. Thanks Colomon.
A part is in Dm with one flat the B.
B part is in Em with one sharp the F
Here's the ABC for those interested
X:1
T:Grassholm
M:4/4
L:1/8
K:Dm
D4 d2EF|G2F2 E2F2|D2d2 d2c=B|c4 c4|
d2D2 D2de|f2e2 d2e2|d2A2 d2fe|d4 d4:|
K:Em
e2B2 A2B2|A2B2 e4|b2c'2 b2a2|g2f2 e2d2|
e2e2 B2B2|e2e2 g4|1B2A2 B2d2|e4 e4:|2B2A2 F2G2|E4 E4|
Edit to sort B nat. Thanks Colomon.
Last edited by narrowdog on Thu Nov 17, 2016 7:10 am, edited 2 times in total.
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- Steve Bliven
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Re: D whistle Fnat thumb hole.
Put a "^" (without the quotes) before the B to sharpen it and make B nat.narrowdog wrote:I don't know how to add a B nat to Dm ABC.
Best wishes.
Steve
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