Does anyone know how, what appears to be, Scottish warpipes and kilts became associated with Irish music? I ask this because every St. Patrick's Day the parades are full of marching bands who are all wearing kilts and playing bagpipes. Is there a tradition of such marching bands in Ireland and is that something that was influenced by Scottish marching bands?
Thanks.
Bagpipes and kilts on St. Patricks Day
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Roger O'Keeffe
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Maybe Turner won't notice this post. It's all the fault of the British Army, which developed pipe bands for its Scottish and Irish Regiments, complete with kilts.
The Irish army has continued what at this stage has to be accepted as a tradition, however dodgy its origins. Their pipe bands wear a saffron-coloured kilt. Unlike the brass bands in both armies, the members of pipe bands are fully operational infantrymen.
The Irish army has continued what at this stage has to be accepted as a tradition, however dodgy its origins. Their pipe bands wear a saffron-coloured kilt. Unlike the brass bands in both armies, the members of pipe bands are fully operational infantrymen.
An Pluiméir Ceolmhar
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AaronMalcomb
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I would have to concur with Roger about the influence of the British Army.
Also if you go back in history there is a link between Scottish pipers and Ireland. For one, Gaelic culture came to Scotland from Ireland and up until Victorian times the Highland pipes were just that, a part of Gaelic culture in the Highlands and Islands, not the Lowlands. There is also documentation of the legendary pipers, the MacCrimmons and others, going to Ireland to complete their piping education. A lot of historians think piping was brought by the Irish to Scotland. My favorite piping joke is that the Irish gave the bagpipe to the Scots as a joke but they never got it.
Nowadays pipe bands are very common in Ireland and St. Laurence O'Toole Pipe Band out of Dublin has garned some prizes in grade 1 (the highest competition level for bands) over the years.
Whether or not pipe bands and kilts are appropriate for a St. Paddy's day celebration is debatable but I enjoy the oppurtunities for gigs.
Cheers,
Aaron
Also if you go back in history there is a link between Scottish pipers and Ireland. For one, Gaelic culture came to Scotland from Ireland and up until Victorian times the Highland pipes were just that, a part of Gaelic culture in the Highlands and Islands, not the Lowlands. There is also documentation of the legendary pipers, the MacCrimmons and others, going to Ireland to complete their piping education. A lot of historians think piping was brought by the Irish to Scotland. My favorite piping joke is that the Irish gave the bagpipe to the Scots as a joke but they never got it.
Nowadays pipe bands are very common in Ireland and St. Laurence O'Toole Pipe Band out of Dublin has garned some prizes in grade 1 (the highest competition level for bands) over the years.
Whether or not pipe bands and kilts are appropriate for a St. Paddy's day celebration is debatable but I enjoy the oppurtunities for gigs.
Cheers,
Aaron
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Irish Terrier
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Kilts and bagpipes
Hello,
MarkD, you hit the nail on the head. Pipes bands first came from the British Army, as we see them today as Roger O'Keeffe has said. But the pipes in their warpipe (highland) form have been in Ireland throughout the centuries. Some had 1 drone, some 2 drones and some had 3 or 4 drones.
Kilts however are as Irish as they are Scottish, although the tartan belongs to Scotland. The Irish kilts were of many different shades of colour, different shades of green, red etc, etc. Saffron was very comon as shawls in Ireland, hence the saffron kilts.
St. Laurence O'Toole Pipe Band out of Dublin is a band of big interest, as it was formed through the Irish Republican moment in the very early years of the last century. Some of its members are stepped in history and would be familar to many of us. Sean O'Casey, Patrick Pearse, Tom Clarke and Plunket Donaghy. All leaders of the Republican movement during 1916 up-rising. A lot of bands in Ireland from those days would have also been formed through the Republican movement.
Today we have a lot of Irish bands and one band I know of in Belfast, The Irish Republican Fellons Pipe Band which amazes!!! me are wearing Scottish uniforms. I don't know, but I get the feeling that some are seemingly ashamed of their own culture and adopting a Scottish uniform rather than a uniform which would fit with their own traditions and culture.
Yes, Pipe Bands and kilts belong with St Patrick's Day celebrations and fit well if they wear Irish Uniforms and play Irish Tunes.
Seamus
MarkD, you hit the nail on the head. Pipes bands first came from the British Army, as we see them today as Roger O'Keeffe has said. But the pipes in their warpipe (highland) form have been in Ireland throughout the centuries. Some had 1 drone, some 2 drones and some had 3 or 4 drones.
Kilts however are as Irish as they are Scottish, although the tartan belongs to Scotland. The Irish kilts were of many different shades of colour, different shades of green, red etc, etc. Saffron was very comon as shawls in Ireland, hence the saffron kilts.
St. Laurence O'Toole Pipe Band out of Dublin is a band of big interest, as it was formed through the Irish Republican moment in the very early years of the last century. Some of its members are stepped in history and would be familar to many of us. Sean O'Casey, Patrick Pearse, Tom Clarke and Plunket Donaghy. All leaders of the Republican movement during 1916 up-rising. A lot of bands in Ireland from those days would have also been formed through the Republican movement.
Today we have a lot of Irish bands and one band I know of in Belfast, The Irish Republican Fellons Pipe Band which amazes!!! me are wearing Scottish uniforms. I don't know, but I get the feeling that some are seemingly ashamed of their own culture and adopting a Scottish uniform rather than a uniform which would fit with their own traditions and culture.
Yes, Pipe Bands and kilts belong with St Patrick's Day celebrations and fit well if they wear Irish Uniforms and play Irish Tunes.
Seamus
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AaronMalcomb
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The topic of Irish Pipe Bands and mouthblown bagpipes was discussed in depth on Bob Dunsire's bagpipe forum. Click here if you're interested.
Cheers,
Aaron
Cheers,
Aaron
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Pat Cannady
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Re: Kilts and bagpipes
Yeah, one of my pet peeves is a pipe band playing "Scotland the Brave" on St. Pat's. Would it kill the parade pipers to learn another tune?Irish Terrier wrote:
Yes, Pipe Bands and kilts belong with St Patrick's Day celebrations and fit well if they wear Irish Uniforms and play Irish Tunes.
Seamus
(Yeah, I'm talking about you, Shannon Rovers
) It's a great tune, but even "The Minstrel Boy" is more appropriate. There's a great setting of "The Gold Ring" for highland pipes, it's not quite as good as the UP version, but it still rocks.
How about O'Sullivan's March? Or The Burnt Old Man? Fainne Gael an Lae? O'Neill's March? Or my favorite, Faed an Iolair, the Eagle's Whistle?
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Bloomfield
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Re: Kilts and bagpipes
Maybe it's just their idea of a joke? I wouldn't know, because I've never yet met a GHB player with a sense of humor.Pat Cannady wrote:Yeah, one of my pet peeves is a pipe band playing "Scotland the Brave" on St. Pat's. Would it kill the parade pipers to learn another tune?Irish Terrier wrote:
Yes, Pipe Bands and kilts belong with St Patrick's Day celebrations and fit well if they wear Irish Uniforms and play Irish Tunes.
Seamus
/Bloomfield
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brad maloney
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For a lot of the same reasons that Americans associate Corned Beef with the Irish. It's just as Irish as it is Jewish in my eyes but some think differently.
As far as pipe bands & their limited number of tunes; I was at a Fife & drum muster & the topic of HP bands came up. One of the fifers said "Those #$@!'s only know 5 tunes!"
I said "Yeah & you guys know 6!"
I thought it was funny, but it was the only time I ever heard crickets at a muster.
I think the average HP's limited rep. is a matter of a lack of passion. They know "Scotland the Brave" & "Amazing Grace" & it's enough to get them through a parade. In the US most HP-bands are made up of fireman or police, the pipe band is more of sybol (or a club) than a musical group. It's about the whole shabang, the get-up, the friendships/brotherhood, not just the music. IMO It shows, threadbare. I'd rather listen to kittens being drowned than that stuff , but to each there own.
As far as pipe bands & their limited number of tunes; I was at a Fife & drum muster & the topic of HP bands came up. One of the fifers said "Those #$@!'s only know 5 tunes!"
I said "Yeah & you guys know 6!"
I thought it was funny, but it was the only time I ever heard crickets at a muster.
I think the average HP's limited rep. is a matter of a lack of passion. They know "Scotland the Brave" & "Amazing Grace" & it's enough to get them through a parade. In the US most HP-bands are made up of fireman or police, the pipe band is more of sybol (or a club) than a musical group. It's about the whole shabang, the get-up, the friendships/brotherhood, not just the music. IMO It shows, threadbare. I'd rather listen to kittens being drowned than that stuff , but to each there own.
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Pat Cannady
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I guess I'm spoiled by having been exposed to Canadian bands.brad maloney wrote:For a lot of the same reasons that Americans associate Corned Beef with the Irish. It's just as Irish as it is Jewish in my eyes but some think differently.
As far as pipe bands & their limited number of tunes; I was at a Fife & drum muster & the topic of HP bands came up. One of the fifers said "Those #$@!'s only know 5 tunes!"
I said "Yeah & you guys know 6!"
I thought it was funny, but it was the only time I ever heard crickets at a muster.
I think the average HP's limited rep. is a matter of a lack of passion. They know "Scotland the Brave" & "Amazing Grace" & it's enough to get them through a parade. In the US most HP-bands are made up of fireman or police, the pipe band is more of sybol (or a club) than a musical group. It's about the whole shabang, the get-up, the friendships/brotherhood, not just the music. IMO It shows, threadbare. I'd rather listen to kittens being drowned than that stuff , but to each there own.
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AaronMalcomb
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I've personally lost count of the number of tunes I know on Highland pipes. It depends on what day and how my memory is working. My band's repertoire can fill a good 90-120 minute concert. Check out our CD One Scottish Evening.
The problem with pipe bands is they exist in a pyramid. At the top of the pyramid are the high level pipe bands that have large repertoires of tunes and are made up of highly skilled players that play in tight unison. Those are the bands of which there are the fewest. Then there are the lower level bands made up of less skilled players who aren't able to play in tight unison and whose repertoires leave much to be desired. Those are the bands of which there are the most.
So when most people hear a pipe band it is more likely to be a band that plays Scotland the Brave and Amazing Grace ad nauseum and that really don't sound all that good. Most people don't hear the good bands because those bands hardly ever do parades or memorial ceremonies, etc. Good bands spend all of their time practicing and travelling to compete against the other good bands or doing concerts to raise the money for travelling.
It's a shame that the good bands don't get out more for people to hear good Highland piping but being a member of a pretty good pipe band I can say I prefer doing competitions and concerts over parades and ceremonies. It's more fun, more challenging, and more rewarding.
Luckily the good bands do put out excellent recordings. Check out any CDs of the World Pipe Band Championship or CDs by bands who have won the World Pipe Band Championships. Some suggestions would be the Simon Fraser University Pipe Band, the Field Marshall Montgomery Pipe Band, the 78th Fraser Highlanders, and Victoria Police Pipe Band. The latter two bands recorded live concerts in Ireland that have risen the bar of pipe band performances.
Cheers,
Aaron
The problem with pipe bands is they exist in a pyramid. At the top of the pyramid are the high level pipe bands that have large repertoires of tunes and are made up of highly skilled players that play in tight unison. Those are the bands of which there are the fewest. Then there are the lower level bands made up of less skilled players who aren't able to play in tight unison and whose repertoires leave much to be desired. Those are the bands of which there are the most.
So when most people hear a pipe band it is more likely to be a band that plays Scotland the Brave and Amazing Grace ad nauseum and that really don't sound all that good. Most people don't hear the good bands because those bands hardly ever do parades or memorial ceremonies, etc. Good bands spend all of their time practicing and travelling to compete against the other good bands or doing concerts to raise the money for travelling.
It's a shame that the good bands don't get out more for people to hear good Highland piping but being a member of a pretty good pipe band I can say I prefer doing competitions and concerts over parades and ceremonies. It's more fun, more challenging, and more rewarding.
Luckily the good bands do put out excellent recordings. Check out any CDs of the World Pipe Band Championship or CDs by bands who have won the World Pipe Band Championships. Some suggestions would be the Simon Fraser University Pipe Band, the Field Marshall Montgomery Pipe Band, the 78th Fraser Highlanders, and Victoria Police Pipe Band. The latter two bands recorded live concerts in Ireland that have risen the bar of pipe band performances.
Cheers,
Aaron
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Pat Cannady
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AaronMalcomb wrote:I've personally lost count of the number of tunes I know on Highland pipes. It depends on what day and how my memory is working. My band's repertoire can fill a good 90-120 minute concert. Check out our CD One Scottish Evening.
The problem with pipe bands is they exist in a pyramid. At the top of the pyramid are the high level pipe bands that have large repertoires of tunes and are made up of highly skilled players that play in tight unison. Those are the bands of which there are the fewest. Then there are the lower level bands made up of less skilled players who aren't able to play in tight unison and whose repertoires leave much to be desired. Those are the bands of which there are the most.
So when most people hear a pipe band it is more likely to be a band that plays Scotland the Brave and Amazing Grace ad nauseum and that really don't sound all that good. Most people don't hear the good bands because those bands hardly ever do parades or memorial ceremonies, etc. Good bands spend all of their time practicing and travelling to compete against the other good bands or doing concerts to raise the money for travelling.
It's a shame that the good bands don't get out more for people to hear good Highland piping but being a member of a pretty good pipe band I can say I prefer doing competitions and concerts over parades and ceremonies. It's more fun, more challenging, and more rewarding.
Luckily the good bands do put out excellent recordings. Check out any CDs of the World Pipe Band Championship or CDs by bands who have won the World Pipe Band Championships. Some suggestions would be the Simon Fraser University Pipe Band, the Field Marshall Montgomery Pipe Band, the 78th Fraser Highlanders, and Victoria Police Pipe Band. The latter two bands recorded live concerts in Ireland that have risen the bar of pipe band performances.
Cheers,
Aaron
Thanks, Aaron. I don't mean to sound anti-GHB; I love well-played, well-tuned scottish pipes. Let me add the Toronto District Police Band to the list. At least they push themselves beyond the usual repertoire, and for that I respect them. ('d love to see them lead a St. Pat's Day parade here in Chicago). Most American bands need a few more Jock McBile types spread through their ranks
Oh yes, Schotts and Dykehead Massed Caledonian Pipes Band. What a great band they were.
The good bands are out there, don't slag scottish pipe bands until you hear a good one. I'm not a scottish piper, but I respect the dedication of real scottish pipers (you know who you are) everywhere. I respect the dedication of real pipers regardless of their ethnic origins-men and women who give the majority of their free time to cantankerous, hard to maintain but every so lovely instruments played nearly everywhere west of the Urals and north of the Sahara.
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The Sporting Pitchfork
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For another good "Irish" pipe band, try the Field Marshal Montgomery pipe band from Belfast. Some good settings of Irish tunes.
Sorry for blundering so far off topic, but the full title of the "Steamtrain" tune LKtz refers to is "Steam Train to Mallaig." A good recording of it can be heard on The Vale of Atholl Pipe Band's CD "Live and Well" (which, perhaps a bit more on topic, also features some great settings of Irish jigs and reels as I recall...)
Sorry for blundering so far off topic, but the full title of the "Steamtrain" tune LKtz refers to is "Steam Train to Mallaig." A good recording of it can be heard on The Vale of Atholl Pipe Band's CD "Live and Well" (which, perhaps a bit more on topic, also features some great settings of Irish jigs and reels as I recall...)
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Baglady
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[/quote}Sorry for blundering so far off topic, but the full title of the "Steamtrain" tune LKtz refers to is "Steam Train to Mallaig." A good recording of it can be heard on The Vale of Atholl Pipe Band's CD "Live and Well" (which, perhaps a bit more on topic, also features some great settings of Irish jigs and reels as I recall...)[/quote]
Our pipeband Brian Boru Irish has Steamtrain to Mallaig on our CD available on Rego Record's sight. We are an Irish Warpipe band and play Irish music. The CD also has band members playing ITM on other instruments including the whistle.
Check it out
Our pipeband Brian Boru Irish has Steamtrain to Mallaig on our CD available on Rego Record's sight. We are an Irish Warpipe band and play Irish music. The CD also has band members playing ITM on other instruments including the whistle.
Check it out-
sturob
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Baglady, do you actually play pipes with two drones?
I haven't seen a pipe band with any two-drone pipes in YEARS of piping.
Oh, I'll say one quick note about rep: people like to know what they're hearing, and US audiences (love my country but MAN are people STUPID) WANT to hear Scotland the Brave. The band I played with in high school would play Irish stuff like Gary Owen and St. Patrick's Day, but nothing was as popular as the Scottish boring standbys.
Contast that with marching in Scotland. I've marched with bands in Edinburgh, and the crowds know EVERYTHING and sing along. To more obscure stuff. THAT's cool.
Stuart
I haven't seen a pipe band with any two-drone pipes in YEARS of piping.
Oh, I'll say one quick note about rep: people like to know what they're hearing, and US audiences (love my country but MAN are people STUPID) WANT to hear Scotland the Brave. The band I played with in high school would play Irish stuff like Gary Owen and St. Patrick's Day, but nothing was as popular as the Scottish boring standbys.
Contast that with marching in Scotland. I've marched with bands in Edinburgh, and the crowds know EVERYTHING and sing along. To more obscure stuff. THAT's cool.
Stuart