Is an Uilleann chanter chromatic?

[ston]

I haven't been able to figure out for sure by looking at various web sites, so here's my question: Is an uilleann pipe chanter chromatic through its whole range? If not, how close can it get? How much keywork is required?

-David
Anxiously awaiting my Patrick Murray practice set....

[No E]

UP chanters generally require 4 keys to be fully chromatic.
The vast bulk of ITM that can be played on the pipes can be played without any keys at all.

Good luck,

No E

[Lorenzo]

If you were to put about as many keys on the chanters as you'd find on an oboe, you could get a chromatic scale, but it's not particularly useful in Irish music, the Cnat, Fnat, and G# probably get used the most, but with cross-fingering, or half-holing, even these can sometimes be obtained (except the high Cnat) if both the reed and the chanter is made correctly.

BTW, I was listening to Patrick Murray's sound clips on his web site. He truely is one remarkable piper, and though the chanters are not made of wood, or have the tone one might expect from a good wood, it's close enough, sounds great, and does everthing it should. I think you'll be quite satisfied.

Welcome to C&F. It seem like we are suddenly getting lots of new members. It's always good to have fresh thoughts.

[Dionys]

Because the UP is typically tuned in just intonation/temperment instead of equal temperment, I'm not even sure I'd claim it's properly chromatic. For example in just intonation, an "A" sounding on a D (concert) chanter is pitched slightly different than an "A" sounding on a C (or B) chanter.

But that's being picky.

Dionys

[Lorenzo]

But that's being picky.

Arn't there 12 semitones possible in every chromatic scale no matter which key you are in? I think a diatonic scale utlilizes only 8 of the notes, major or minor. Most chanters just don't have all the semi-toneholes drilled, but the reed will produce any semitone if it is drilled, or if cross-fingering is used. Same with different size/keys of clarinets or saxaphones.

[ston]

Because the UP is typically tuned in just intonation/temperment instead of equal temperment, I'm not even sure I'd claim it's properly chromatic. For example in just intonation, an "A" sounding on a D (concert) chanter is pitched slightly different than an "A" sounding on a C (or B) chanter.

But that's being picky.

Well, I'm new to just temperment, so I'm just theorizing here. Since just tempered tuning is relative to the tonic, it seems like the "off" notes of the scale would be more and more out of tune from what we're familiar with in modern instruments (equal temperment). So would it perhaps sound weird to play a just tempered chromatic scale? Could be. Can anyone comment on this?

Of course, this brings up another question: without equal tempered tuning, how can the UP be played with other western instruments? Wouldn't it create harsh beats and discord with the slightly different tuning of the other instruments? Yet I seem to recall hearing UPs played with non-Irish instruments in the past, and I didn't notice anything weird. What's up with that?

Okay, and then there's the next question: does anyone make a set of pipes designed to use equal tempered tuning? Perhaps it wouldn't sound as good with the regulators, but the ability to play with equal tempered instruments would be a pretty big incentive....

Or am I just smoking crack?

-David

[Tony]

Just temperment is made to blend in with drones.

I know of two chanters that were specifically voiced to play equal temperment. There are probably a handful of chanters like this.

[bagpipeworks]

Hi

Tony has hit the nail on the head here, an instrument which is designed with Just temperence or Monophonicaly tuned is indeed designed to be played to blend against a set of drones.

I would like to point out that most modern tuning meters are designed for tuning the many modern instruments found today, called by some as Polyphonically tuned instruments.
When tuning an uilleann pipe chanter there is a variation within this scale and not all notes appear to be on or in tune using these meters and should really be used as a good but not true guide on all the notes found
on a UP.

Here is the table of tuning differences for any chanter using natural (or "just") tuning, as measured with an electronic tuner using standard concert ("equal") tuning:

Note Name Cents Difference on Tuner

1 B C C# D = 0 (bottom note, "low D")
2 C# D D# E = -4
3 D# E F F# = +14
4 E F F# G = +2
5 F# G G# A = -2
6 G# A A# B = +16
6.5 A Bb B C = -18 ("C-natural" note)
7 Bb B C C# = +12
8 B C C# D = 0 (top note, "back D")

I have included the note "6.5", which is C-natural
on a D chanter, because it is commonly used and
can be played without using any keys.

Please note that the key names are also included for B, C, C#
chanters.

The pattern of variations is the same for the second octave.

Davy.

[Cristóir]

For a fairly thorough, basic explanation of just and even (or “tempered” or “equal tempered”) intonation see the following site (look for the <strong>What is...</strong> link): <a href="http://www.justintonation.net/">http:// ... on.net/</a>

Equal temperament is a Western tonal concept (12 tones per octave), whereas much World Music makes more thorough use of the entire range of possibilities. Indian classical music, or even the Byzantine Chant used in (the non-Slavic jurisdictions of) the Eastern Orthodox Church make use of a greater number of tonal divisions. For example, Indian music is made up of 12 tones with a number of microtones, for a total of 22 microtones per octave. Byzantine music limited this somewhat early on, but still uses a broader palette than traditional Western music.

Most non-stringed "band" instruments common to western music are tuned using equal tempered intonation. While string players now attempt to play w/ just intonation. If I had to play my saxophone with classical string players I'd have some work to do to make myself in tune with them.

The following link goes into a little more technical detail: <a href="http://www.phy.mtu.edu/~suits/scales.ht ... es.html</a>

I’ll include a portion of this doc here:

The table below shows the frequency ratios for notes tuned in the Just and Equal temperament scales. For the equal temperament scale, the frequency of each note in the chromatic scale is related to the frequency of the notes next to it by a factor of the twelfth root of 2 (1.0594630944....). For the Just scale, the notes are related to the fundamental by rational numbers and the semitones are not equally spaced. The most pleasing sounds to the ear are usually combinations of notes related by ratios of small integers, such as the fifth (3/2) or third (5/4). The Just scale is constructed based on the octave and an attempt to have as many of these "nice" intervals as possible. In contrast, one can create scales in other ways, such as a scale based on the fifth only.

Code: Select all

Interval          Ratio to Fundamental   Ratio to Fundamental
                      Just Scale           Equal Temperament

Unison                       1.0000             1.00000
Minor Second         25/24 = 1.0417             1.05946
Major Second           9/8 = 1.1250             1.12246
Minor Third            6/5 = 1.2000             1.18921
Major Third            5/4 = 1.2500             1.25992
Fourth                 4/3 = 1.3333             1.33483
Diminished Fifth     45/32 = 1.4063             1.41421
Fifth                  3/2 = 1.5000             1.49831
Minor Sixth            8/5 = 1.6000             1.58740
Major Sixth            5/3 = 1.6667             1.68179
Minor Seventh          9/5 = 1.8000             1.78180
Major Seventh         15/8 = 1.8750             1.88775
Octave                       2.0000             2.0000

You will note that the most "pleasing" musical intervals above are those which have a frequency ratio of relatively small integers. Some authors have slightly different ratios for some of these intervals, and the Just scale actually defines more notes than we usually use. For example, the "augmented fourth" and "diminished fifth," which are assumed to be the same in the table, are actually not the same.

The set of 12 notes above (plus all notes related by octaves) form the chromatic scale. The Pentatonic (5-note) scales are formed using a subset of five of these notes. The common western scales include seven of these notes, and Chords are formed using combinations of these notes.

As an example, the chart below shows the frequencies of the notes (in Hz) for C Major, starting on middle C (C4), for just and equal temperament. For the purposes of this chart, it is assumed that C4 = 261.63 Hz is used for both (this gives A4 = 440 Hz for the equal tempered scale).

Code: Select all

Note  Just Scale  Equal Temperament  Difference
C4     261.63          261.63            0
C4#    272.54          277.18           +4.64
D4     294.33          293.66           -0.67
E4b    313.96          311.13           -2.84
E4     327.03          329.63           +2.60
F4     348.83          349.23           +0.40
F4#    367.92          369.99           +2.07
G4     392.44          392.00           -0.44
A4b    418.60          415.30           -3.30
A4     436.05          440.00           +3.94
B4b    470.93          466.16           -4.77
B4     490.55          493.88           +3.33
C5     523.25          523.25            0

Since your ear can easily hear a difference of less than 1 Hz for sustained notes, differences of several Hz can be quite significant!

More info than you wanted?!

Ephrem Cristóir

[Lorenzo]

I remember discussing this topic last year. It can get a little confusing to a piper who simply wants to be in-tune. The thing to keep in mind is that STRINGS are under fixed tension, REEDS are under variable pressure. Also, chromatic vs. diatonic (or other) is apples, just scale vs. temperament scale is oranges. You can have a chromatic scale (12 semitones--or 1/2 steps) within the octave of almost any instrument, regardless of whether it's tuned in "just intonation" or "equal temperament." Achieving one or the other on a UP chanter is simply a matter of drilling the tonehole up or down a tiny bit, or larger or smaller a tiny bit. Most are drilled to be in-tune with a piano, and other instruments

While playing up and down the scale, I tried stopping my UP chanter on A (low octave on chanter--5th octave on piano)), using a sophisticated piano tuning machine which has a rotary light measuring cents, # or b, in either direction, and got a different reading every time. I seriously doubt if a piper could apply bag pressure steady enough to consistently aquire either a "just intonation A" or "equal temperament A" within a UP scale, and know which one he was hitting. Besides, using which fingering? With an A, in the low register, lift any one of the other fingers and you're off. Who uses the exact same fingering on every tune? The chanter off the knee will produce the same kind of thing...the upper A goes sharp, lower A goes flat.

Just intonation is aways perfect (no beats when playing D against any G, or D against any A). This temperament scale is particularly useful with both regs and drones, though I doubt if anyone could tell the difference. We have trouble enough keeping the pressure "even." Equal temperment, or the temperatment scale is tuned so that no two notes are ever perfect, played against each other. They are out of tune equally within the temperament octave. This is done purposely so that any 3 note chord you strike on stringed instruments are tolerable, yet imperfect. And, it adds richness to the chord. You could tune a piano so that the C chord sounded perfectly ON, anywhere on the keyboard, but all other chords would sound OFF. That's why stringed instruments are never tuned "just" but tuned equally off to each other going up or down the scale. On a piano, D played against the A above is only off 3 beats in 5 seconds (octave 4 on piano). Just say "wawoh...wawoh...wawoh" in 5 seconds and that's how imperfectly out of tune the temperament scale is.

Guitar players are always hitting one chord (smiling) then another chord (frowning). Finally they compromise (no or ) but just a shrug ......someone correct me if my thinking if OFF

[Cristóir]

While playing up and down the scale, I tried stopping my UP chanter on A (low octave on chanter--5th octave on piano)), using a sophisticated piano tuning machine which has a rotary light measuring cents, # or b, in either direction, and got a different reading every time. I seriously doubt if a piper could apply bag pressure steady enough to consistently aquire either a "just intonation A" or "equal temperament A" within a UP scale, and know which one he was hitting. Besides, using which fingering? With an A, in the low register, lift any one of the other fingers and you're off. Who uses the exact same fingering on every tune? The chanter off the knee will produce the same kind of thing...the upper A goes sharp, lower A goes flat.

Of course no-one on a variable pitch instrument can duplicate the exact same frequency on demand. But the aim is at coming as close as possible. I don't know about the pipes as I haven't played them yet, but with saxophone, it is pretty standard procedure to practice playing long tones against a tuner, hopefully keeping each note within a very few cents of target. The sole purpose of which is to improve one's ear, intonation, and tone quality. It is also standard procedure to learn all the alternate fingerings possible for TWO reasons: convenience in playing (smoothness of technique) AND, just as important, to correct "out" notes. On a saxophone you can have four or five different ways of fingering the same note within the natural range of the instrument, even more in the altissimo range. You learn which ones bring out of tune notes into tune and use them when appropriate. And so you practice all the different fingering adjusting breath velocity (corresponding to bag pressure) and emboucher to control the note. Much effort is put into trying to produce as close to the same tone quality across the entire range of the instrument, though obviously there will be differences.

The most important thing of all of this is developing a sensitive ear. When playing with others intonation becomes not just a static thing, but relative to the rest of the players. But you can't do this without learning all the tricks of the trade AND developing an excellent ear.

Sorry so much of this is in regards to saxophone, but I'm assuming that my experience on the saxophone with its many techniques will have correlaries with the UP.

[Lorenzo]

Of course no-one on a variable pitch instrument can duplicate the exact same frequency on demand. But the aim is at coming as close as possible.

Exactly, and anyone on the pipes practices these same exercises to be in tune also. Playing a slow air, and chanter with regulators on slow tunes, I'll use whichever fingering is necessary to stay in-tune with everything else, it's not always the same fingering.

I have an interesteng question for experienced pipemakers: making a standard D chanter...within reason, you could make a large bore with smaller than normal toneholes and keep it in tune yet with less volume? Or conversely, a smaller bore with larger toneholes?

Also, thinking about what a "just intonation" chanter could possibly be like...if the reed was scraped with certain "tuning zones" this chanter could actually produce a "temperament scale," right? Everything becomes relative to something else, staple shape/size included.

[Uilliam]

The chanter is an integral part of the set be it half or with regulators.The key word here is Dronal the pipes are a dronal instrument and are played in balance with same so there is absolutely no point in talking about a fully chromatic chanter as the drones are fixed.
Anyone out there tried playing in E Flat maj with a fully chromatic chanter and drones???
If you want a fully chromatic chanter get an Oboe and leave the Irish Pipe as it should be with its drones.
As for keywork as said before you can get all the notes by cross fingering without the keys .(think of the money you will save)

Lorenzo,even the high C nat as follow .. Play a grace note on C# hole and open upper E hole (all at 2nd register pressure)
Slan go foill
Liam :roll:

[Tony]

What's the purpose of the shutoff valve on the drones?

[Lorenzo]

Anyone out there tried playing in E Flat maj with a fully chromatic chanter and drones???...Lorenzo,even the high C nat as follow .. Play a grace note on C# hole and open upper E hole (all at 2nd register pressure)
Slan go foill
Liam :roll:

(thanks Liam, I'll try that for the upper Cnat)
Play in Eb maj? I do...all the time. I had to learn to play in Eb while doing a 3-week performance with the NY Philharmonic last year (a St. Pats Day Extravaganza). Adjusting the drones were the simple part (thank God for chromatic drone capos) as you just slide them up a 1/2 step (I couldn't push the chanter reed in far enough and still keep the entire octave in tune). The hard part was learning all the cross-fingerings well enough and changing from one note to the next fast enough to play such reels as I'd never heard of before! But thank God for Guinness! I found the less I concentrated, the easier it was to learn. I was greatful to get back into D, believe me!

BTW, is today April 11, or 1...I get a little mixed up sometimes when I'm seeing seeing double

What's the purpose of the shutoff valve on the drones?

Hey lad, why so serious? Killer question! It's to shut the air off so you can play the drones w/o the chanter reed a'wailing!