Tips for managing intonation using 150+ year old flute

[est]

So, I'm basically a beginner with the flute and have owned my only real wooden flute for a couple of days. It's a french, 5 key instrument that was made ~1850s and restored by one of the Olwells. The other flute I own is a Tony Dixon tunable practice flute, which is basically a black PVC tube with holes in it! I've been playing on it for 6 or 8 months.

The PVC flute is actually reasonable well in tune with itself, at least across the octave with the exception of the c natural and even that isn't really bad. But the the E on the old flute is very sharp.

I really like the tone I get with the old flute, even if I have a really long way to go to get used to such a tiny embouchure and the difference in weight. But, that E is a real problem for me. If this is normal and there are techniques folks can recommend to overcome it, I would love to hear them. The difference is in the range of a quarter tone, maybe even a bit more so it's quite noticeable. I can bend it down rolling the flute and messing with my embouchure, but the changes required (at least for me right now) are so dramatic that I can't imagine doing it in real time with any success. It was like my trying to arpeggiate up and down on f major at a reasonable pace on a keyless...but, maybe people get really good at hitting half-holes really fast.

Any tips? I have a few days left before I can no longer return it. I don't want to do that if there is something I am supposed to be doing that I don't know about.

Thanks!

[jim stone]

If I remember right you bought this from the Irish Flute Store. These are very good, knowledgeable, helpful people and I would recommend getting to talk by phone with Blayne. Send him an e mail and tell him the problem and that you would like to talk with him. One thought I have is that Patrick refurbished this (if I remember right) and his work is generally very good, so there may be some hope that you can correct for this.

[Flutern]

I have two antiques: a French flute similar to yours and another one which is actually on its way to me as I got it overhauled and re-intonated. I love antique flutes, but I think we need to manage our expectations with these instruments: intonation is usually just not as good as on well made modern flutes. Modern flutes are optimized for A=440 and they are also often (though not always) optimized for playing in the first two octaves.
You can try to "lip down" this sharp E by adjusting the blowing angle and blowing more "down into the flute", but personally it's something I'm unable to do at any significant speed, as there are so many other things to think about (fingering, articulation, rhythm, breathing, etc.).

One thing that is sometimes done on antique flutes to lower the pitch of a note is to apply some beeswax to the hole below that note. (It's often done for B and A.) How much you put and where you put it will both influence the resulting pitch, and it might affect both octaves differently. However, E is the weakest note on the flute and the 6th hole is the smallest, so it's likely that the note would become muffled as a result. Plus, holes on French flutes are very small to begin with. But you could experiment by applying the tiniest amount of blu tack for instance, and see if that makes this E more manageable without any adverse effect.

[kkrell]

Have you tried holding down the Eb key while playing E?

[Terry McGee]

That will sharpen the E which is already too sharp. I'd agree with gwuilleann that reducing the size of the hole is probably the way to go. Probably by sticking the blutack or beeswax to the embouchure side of the hole.

Here's another question to consider though. Is second octave E also too sharp, or is it tending flat? Is it possible that the current size of the hole is a compromise setting?

Always wise to check the stopper distance is set plausibly (say around 19mm, 3/4" from face to centre of embouchure). Not likely to be implicated, but easy to check.

[Steampacket]

But the the E on the old flute is very sharp. est

I'd suggest returning the flute, and ask the seller to sort out the tuning of the flute's sharp E note before you commit to purchasing the instrument. If the E is the only note that is a quarter tone sharp then it would seem that the problem is with the flute's intonation at A=440, and not how you play. No point in buying a flute you are not 100 percent happy with especially as regards tuning, or which takes a major effort to play in tune. Have patience, another wooden flute will turn up soon enough.

My main flutes (English) were made in 1842-44 and 1892 and I have no problem with their intonation at A=440. One has a patent head so the stopper cork is adjusted automatically when the head joint slide is extended. I also turn the head in on both flutes and play within the 1st and 2nd octave for the most part.

"Concert pitch rose further in the 19th century as may be seen reflected in the tuning forks of France. The pipe organ tuning fork in Versailles Chapel in 1795 is 390 Hz,[6] but in the Paris Opera an 1810 tuning fork gives A = 423 Hz, an 1822 fork gives A = 432 Hz, and an 1855 fork gives A = 449 Hz."

[Terry McGee]

"Concert pitch rose further in the 19th century as may be seen reflected in the tuning forks of France. The pipe organ tuning fork in Versailles Chapel in 1795 is 390 Hz,[6] but in the Paris Opera an 1810 tuning fork gives A = 423 Hz, an 1822 fork gives A = 432 Hz, and an 1855 fork gives A = 449 Hz."

That's an interesting quote, Steampacket. Source?

We are well familiar with 390hz, known in the harpsichord and recorder world as "old French Pitch". The 1822 fork at 432 is close to the 435 we normally take as "diapason normale". The 1855 fork at 449 is a bit of a surprise. Were the French starting to suffer the Philharmonic (or other?) pressures that pushed pitch up into the mid 450's in England? Or was this a fork for French players about to visit England?

It is conceivable that est's flute is from a period when pitch was above 440, but then we would expect the low D to be even higher than the low E, when referenced to A=440. Est hasn't reported that. I had wondered if the flute was in Eb, but again, the xxx xxx note should then be very sharp.

This is all a bit weird. I'm inclined to run with your opening suggestion, Steampacket: "I'd suggest returning the flute, and ask the seller to sort out the tuning of the flute's sharp E note before you commit to purchasing the instrument."

[Peter Duggan]

"Concert pitch rose further in the 19th century as may be seen reflected in the tuning forks of France. The pipe organ tuning fork in Versailles Chapel in 1795 is 390 Hz,[6] but in the Paris Opera an 1810 tuning fork gives A = 423 Hz, an 1822 fork gives A = 432 Hz, and an 1855 fork gives A = 449 Hz."

That's an interesting quote, Steampacket. Source?

It's from Wikipedia:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Concert_p ... _inflation

But the bible for this stuff is probably A History of Performing Pitch: The Story of 'A' by Bruce Haynes. It's a weighty, very expensive hardback and I have it!

[est]

So, first, let me say thanks to everyone's input. You all have been a very patient and helpful resource!

A couple of you have suggested that the sharpness of the E may well be a compromise to permit better high E (or maybe even two higher Es?) and you were correct. The 2nd register E is perfectly in tune with the D and both were nicely at 440 this morning straight from the box it currently lives in (I know...don't glare too harshly...postal service is slow).

The irony is that the whole reason I decided to plop a couple of grand on a real flute was because my pvc practice flute's low E was a little weak and I found myself spending a LOT of time trying to overcome the breathy sound that wasn't a problem for any of the other notes. I should have caught on because there are several songs that I've been playing on it that spend time on that 2nd E that didn't stick out to me as even remotely problematic, but the songs I'm currently working most right now happen to be in E minor (2 reels and a couple of slow tunes).

So, I think this is just a limitation of this particular instrument.

[PlanxtyPipes]

The irony is that the whole reason I decided to plop a couple of grand on a real flute was because my pvc practice flute's low E was a little weak and I found myself spending a LOT of time trying to overcome the breathy sound that wasn't a problem for any of the other notes. I should have caught on because there are several songs that I've been playing on it that spend time on that 2nd E that didn't stick out to me as even remotely problematic, but the songs I'm currently working most right now happen to be in E minor (2 reels and a couple of slow tunes).

Could it be that you are so used to compensating for the low E on your PVC flute that you are unintentionally blowing it sharp on the new flute? I'd definitely keep playing on your new flute for a few months to let your embouchure "adjust" to the new flute. It could be that in time it naturally starts to correct itself as you find the "right" way to blow the low E on the new flute. I've heard other people complain about the low E being weak on old style simple system flutes as well. I have an Olwell Pratten and I've never really noticed the E being weaker than any of the other notes, but it's definitely something I've heard before. I think you're right to just continue work within the instrument's limitations. All instruments tend to be a little bit...quirky in my experience. That goes for my guitars as well as my flute and tin whistles. They all have certain idiosyncrasies you have to get used to.

[tstermitz]

Blayne's info on the flute said that it should play well at A440; he has an experienced embouchure. Olwell-restored is usually a good sign.

I'm five years into flute playing, and my ability to "lip" notes closer to correct tuning is a recent development.

What happens if you try the flute at a lower tuning, A432 for example?

What happens if you push the E-note harder, to the point where you are getting some overtones from the second register? That may not be easy if you are new to flute. To develop this, play the 1,2,3, (4) harmonics from the low register: D, d, g, d', E, e, a, e', etc.

Do you have the far edge of the embouchure lined up with center of the holes? What happens if you rotate the head away or inwards a couple of degrees? If you are used to a particular angle of attack for your breath, then you may be habituated to playing sharper or flatter than optimal for this flute.

What happens if you confirm that all the pads are sealing tightly? Cling-wrap on the pads, rubber bands or Blue-tac if necessary. Loose or slightly askew key adjustment can contribute to intonation problems.

On the simple system flutes that I have played, venting Eb definitely improves the quality and intonation of the E-note (especially in second register). I have read that French flutes are supposed to have F-nat key vented to sharpen the F#, but I don't bother with that. C-nat vented for C# is useful or necessary on my flutes. The A note usually improves a little in tone quality if you vent G#, but I can't manage that while actually playing!

I don't recall whether antique French flutes also suffer from the flat-foot difficulty common in English flutes.

This thread is somewhat useful, especially what Paddler (Jon) says:
http://staging.forums.chiffandfipple.co ... 76&start=0

The makers of antique flutes aimed to optimized the tuning of their flutes across three octaves. In ITM we tend to ignore the third octave altogether, but these old flutes were not designed specifically for ITM, and in other musical genres third octave tuning is very important. I think you can trace many of the apparent idiosyncrasies in antique flute tuning to trade-offs that the maker made deliberately in order to optimize overall tuning of their instrument across all three octaves. The expectation is that (a) there really is no such thing as a perfectly in-tune flute -- if a flute is in tune with itself for a given pitch standard across all notes at a given temperature, then it will be out of tune with itself for the same pitch standard at a different temperature, since tuning slide adjustments affect different notes differently, and hence (b) the onus is always on the player to play the flute in tune. With these points in mind, flute makers aim to get all notes, across all three octaves, sufficiently close their ideal tuning to be easily played in tune by a decent player. This approach leads to sacrificing perfect tuning for one note in order to gain better tuning for a different note that shares the same venting holes.

The fact that these deviations from our expected tuning in the lower octaves are so consistent across flutes by the same maker, flutes by different makers from the same country, flutes by different makers in different countries, and even across flutes tuned to different pitch standards and in different keys, leads me to believe that they are not accidental, but are deliberate trade-offs made to optimize overall tuning.

Perhaps one of the experienced makers here can let us know specifically which third octave notes are affected by the hole that vents F#? Or perhaps we can take a look at some fingering charts and make some educated guesses.

Jon

[tstermitz]

Hmm. From that same thread (above). I've never heard this explained quite the way Walt Sweet did:

A traditional flute is very sensitive to the size of holes. When that #5 hole is made large to correct the pitch of F#, the octave stretches a lot (while the octave doesn't stretch on the notes around F#). A royal pain; those players focused on tuning have complained (and rightly so). You can demonstrate this phenomenon by adding abnormal venting: if your A has a good octave, just open the G# key and listen for the stretch. In the same vein, most flutes have a compression problem on C#, and this can be stretched back to normal by opening the C-nat key (that's the classic fingering). On my SHANNON flute, I drill the #5 hole then undercut above to correct the octave. When that hole gets too big, people complain about the look and the feel of it.

The third octave will be more greatly influenced by the tone-hole lattice in the left hand rather than the right.

[jim stone]

Again, you can schedule a phone call with Blayne, who has surely played this flute. He has an MA in flute performance from Dublin. The flute has been cleared by two reliably good people. Maybe Blayne
knows something that will help you. He wants to be helpful.
FWIW.

[Loren]

A lot of information has been put forth in this thread, and I imagine trouble shooting a problem like this can become quite confusing as the information overload builds. Consider the following, if you will.

Essential variables to consider:

1. Stopper placement
2. Slide position
3. Which note you choose to tune to
4. Venting and/or cross fingering
5. How you tend to blow - sharp, flat, accurate


These are the items one basically has to work with for trouble shooting purposes with regards to scale/intonation issues.

Now let’s assume for a moment that Messrs. Olwell and Chastain wouldn’t send a wildly out of tune flute into the world.

If you haven’t changed the headjoint stopper position, and you are using the same tuning slide position that Patrick and/or Blayne used, both of which you should double check, then ask them what note they were tuning to. You didn’t tune to the bottom D did you?

Next, Venting: Confirm with Patrick what alternate fingerings, if any, he found necessary on that flute

This takes us through the first 4 items on the list above. Once those items are eliminated and if the problem persists, there are only two possibilities remaining: You are blowing significantly out of tune, or the flute is badly out of tune.

My suspicion is that there are a combination of items from my list which are contributing to your particular results (in addition to the flute’s inherent idiosyncrasies), maybe tuning slide position, note tuned to, and a beginner who tends to blow significantly sharp or flat, in one or both octaves. It should be noted for example that it is not uncommon for someone new to the instrument to blow significantly sharp in the second octave, or to blow way sharp/flat in both octaves, but compensate with the tuning slide, which then messes with the instrument’s intended scale. Keep in mind that lip placement relative to the embouchure hole can significantly impact how sharp/flat you play, as can blowing angle and air jet intensity. Point being, you may have initially learned to position and or blow in a way that is significantly adding to the situation, but that’s unlikely to be the sole factor here.

Anyway, I hope that gives you another way of looking at the situation, and maybe utilizing other information previously put forth in this thread.

[johnkerr]

Many (probably most) flutes that are 150 years old were not made to play at A440 with the tuning slide at the optimal position, i.e. that position at which the internal tuning remains true note-to-note, given of course the temperament in vogue at the time of making, which may have been equal or maybe not. Who knows? The flute, assuming it still plays (which is what the Olwells did for you) can be made to play an A at 440 by adjusting the tuning slide. But then the internal tuning will be out of whack. An experienced player will eventually learn how to lip all the notes (mostly) in tune internally with the slide at the A440 position, but it takes a while. Perhaps years. Best not attempted via weekly attendance at your local session, unless the other players are very, very forgiving.

My advice then would be to play this flute at home, while you learn how to lip all the notes in tune at the A440 position or simply find the original sweet spot on the slide and enjoy playing it by yourself at that position, and find another flute to play with others in the interim. Your best bet for that would of course be a modern flute.