Any Tips for Slurring Into 3rd Register?

[est]

I've been working on learning to play a Bach Sonata on my wooden flute and I'm finally getting to the point where I can actually make some of it sound musical! However, there are a number of phrases where you slur up from C or Bb (both 2rd register) up to the 3rd register E. I have finally gotten to the point where I can play a nice 3rd register E, but only if I tongue it. Slurring just results in some non-note squeaks. I've been working on this for a bit each day for a week or so, but I don't really think I'm making any progress. I can slur down from E to d or any direction I want as long as I stay within the 3rd register, but crossing that 2nd to 3rd register is proving to be very challenging.

Any tips on what I can do specifically to work this out? Obviously my current approach isn't being very successful :/

[GreenWood]

I am not at all sure how that is done or even if it is possible ? I guess that the move up 3rd D or E would have been on keyed flute starting with 3rd C ? Funnily, I just found out how to do what you ask on a keyless flute in D though it might not work on yours. In Porthole of the Kelp a note slides up to second register D , and though I could not do that I found that I could do so with it going to third octave . On the particular flute, top tonehole always open and TH 2,3, 4 and 5 covered gives second octave C harmonic. 2,3 and 4 covered gives C # and 2 and 3 gives third octave D . It is possible to slide between those notes. I don't think "register" matters too much, you are looking for particular notes that can be played between each other in a certain way ?

I'm not sure at all that that would be "the official answer" to your question though, but might be a way.

[est]

Sorry, I should have said this is with a 6 key flute. With the C key, that 2rd register C is nice and clear. The normal cross-fingering for it results in a 3rd register D, so if you are used to using that for a passage and then decide to try it "up top", you'll find you have to retrain yourself.

It took a lot of practice to get the 3rd E to sound nice (the first few days were truly painful!). I can easily play that E now, I just can't play up to it using legato...gotta have a break in the tone to get it to sound clean. I have a feeling this is all a matter of embouchure control which I have yet to properly develop. My 3rd register A sounds a bit like a dying bird ATM, but when I do manage to get something reasonably clear, my low D sounds glorious (at least compared to what it usually sounds like )

I'll have to see if I can use those cross fingerings you found.

[GreenWood]

I suppose it depends which kind of flute you are playing, if it is simple system, if it is conical bore. Bach would have written for simple system flutes. The flute I am playing below is wood cylindrical, no keys. I play C C# 1st octave and D 2nd octave, then play all of those in [going through to] 3rd octave using the fingering mentioned above. I haven't practiced this much at all , the D 3rd octave as fingered above needs precision (pressure) or it goes slightly flat. Also going from B 2nd to C 3rd [2nd octave really but in that new register....2.5 ? ] as fingered above seems smooth.

https://e1.pcloud.link/publink/show?cod ... EsxyNhLtk7



I don't know if it is also possible by jumping register like you were trying though, someone who is able to do that would have to say.

[tstermitz]

3rd register E normally sounds fairly easily on simple system flutes, but my experience is on antiques. It took me a while to achieve a good enough embouchure, and I remember that it was a struggle when I first worked at it.

That said, on some flutes the note does initiate easier than on others.

Slurring is a different question. The finger changes shouldn't be too difficult if you are using 19th century C or Bb notes. Bb to E is merely drop the L-thumb and slap down the R-2 & R-3. C is even easier: drop L-1 and lift R-1. In both cases the little finger Eb vent key just stays down. (You are venting E, right?)

Embouchure control may be where you struggle, right? You have to narrow and speed up the air-stream, and I admit that it takes some practice.

[Flutern]

In addition to what tstermitz said, here are a couple of things to consider:

- there are several fingerings for E3, and I've found that ease of playing, clarity and intonation can vary greatly depending on the flute and the fingering. It might be worth experimenting with (a) XXO/OXX/o (b) XXOo/OXX/o (additional venting with G#) (c) XXO/XXO/o.

- air support: personally, it took me a long time to realize that I had a flawed understanding of "air support". I would try to push the air out with my belly which just created tension and would make me run out of air very quickly. A (classical) flute teacher explained me that it was in fact the opposite: the key idea is to create resistance, as if you were trying to prevent the air from coming out. She suggested that I look at how singers do it, and that helped me tremendously. I find that Arden Kaywin on youtube explains that well (look for "breath support" or "appogio").

Hope that helps

[skap]

Ascending to the 3rd register E from the fundamental and the lower harmonic without changing the fingering nor disrupting the air stream, ONLY by means of the embouchure and pressure control, seems like a very appropriate exercice for what you are looking to achieve. That would decouple the embouchure training from any difficulties with the fingerings.

[tstermitz]

SCAP's suggestion is a good one.

Harmonics from D0, D1, D2, D3, then E0, E1, E2, E3, etc.

You will discover the muscle control soon enough. On my antique flutes holding down the Eb key is essential to vent the harmonics of E.

[joneill]

You're tonguing it because you are relying on the extra boost of air speed you get from suddenly releasing the pressure built up behind your tongue, and on that slight pause in the sound to get your embouchure and fingers changed into position before the new note sounds. You therefore have to work on (1) changing the air stream solely with your embouchure and diaphragm and (2) timing your fingers to that embouchure change.

(1) Work on upper harmonics to build your lip strength and support. Once you get that, start slurring your harmonics up and down and playing harmonic bugle calls. It's difficult but so worth it.

(2) Work on slowly slurring the passage so you can listen intently to any glitches in your fingers as you change notes. You might not catch them if you are going fast so sloooow practice is your friend.

Moyse's De La Sonorite has an amazing slur practice routine. The book can be pricey, so see if you can find a copy to look at. Let me try to explain it because it's helped me immensely:

Set your metronome to 60 bpm, start somewhere in the middle register, and "puff" your way up chromatically, always going back to that first note. Start each note strongly and deliberately, with a full sound, but no tonguing. E.g. F, F#, F, G, F, G#... all the way up. Then puff all the way down in the same pattern E.g. Top C, F, B, F, etc.

Then start on that first note and slur up chromatically, always restarting on that first note. E.g. F slurred to F#, F slurred to G, F slurred to G#... etc. Once you've hit the top, repeat going down. Let the second, slurred note be soft and piano. You're trying to see how easily you can make it come out.

Then start on the second note and slur down to your starting note. E.g. F# slurred down to F, G slurred down to F. Again, reverse once you get to the top

The final stage is to run the whole sequence in triplets at 60 bpm. E.g. F-F#-F triplet, G-F-G# triplet, etc up and then down.

Start on a different note each time, working your way up and down the full range of your flute.

I find this basic practice method helpful for working out tricky slurs in pieces as well. "Puff" them to figure out where you air needs to be, then slur it bit by bit, then run it all through slowly.

[est]

Thanks for these great replies! I guess I knew that the harmonics existed but that didn't really occur to me. That does sound like a good start.

As for fingerings, I have been working on getting those cleaner, but I'd be OK with some blurred intermediary notes as long as they were legato....as it is, if it isn't a good step, the note doesn't sound (not sure what i'm getting..more like a squawk :O ) And..no, I am not venting my E's. I was under the impression the more modern designs didn't require that. Am I mistaken about that? That said, I'll definitely try it and see if that does help clear things up.

It's been a few days, and I am able to slur up from C to E about 50 percent of the time. When it works, the E is nice and sweet. When it doesn't work...again...squawk. So, I'm pretty sure this particular issue is all about my embouchure and the work I've been doing has been slowly refining it. I played in a beginner session last night and believe my tone was stronger than ever before. Even just a month and a half ago (at a session where folks were playing at normal speeds) I felt my volume was weak, and not by choice. So, I think I've made really good progress just working on these passages in the 3rd register even when they are still quite squawky!

I do like the exercises provided here and will try adding them into my morning routine.

[stanton135]

Here's a different type of suggestion entirely to what's been posted already: an alternate fingering--for the C natural, not the high E.

Specifically, an alternate fingering for C natural that is itself a third register fingering--that way the slurring should be no problem.

Of course, I don't know your flute, but I'd start looking for the alternate fingering by fingering 1st/2nd register F natural and seeing if you can get a high C natural with that fingering. If you can, great. If not, try venting a single hole at a time, to see if that makes the difference. I'd probably try T2 first.

For the Bb-to-high-E slur, I'd probably try the same trick. For the alternate fingering for Bb, I'd start my search by fingering 1st octave Eb (with T1 covered) and seeing if that works. (Maybe venting T3 would help it speak.)

Here's a bit of interesting, tangentially related reading: http://www.oldflutes.com/articles/giorgi.htm (In a roundabout way, that's where my suggestion comes from, I suppose.)

[normbell]

This is a really interesting question, and has me thinking about my early days playing a simple system, keyless flute. I had some background playing classical flute, so had developed some embouchure and breathe support basics for playing in the third octave. Interestingly, the first simple system flute teacher I had was quite interested in the acoustical possibilities of the simple system flute. He had me doing exercises focusing on octaves and harmonics. Start on low D, slur up to 2nd octave D, slur up toward 3rd octave D and let that harmonic G speak out when you encounter it, then to 3rd octave D and back down. This is all done without moving a finger. Now do the same thing from E, letting the B harmonic speak out, then from F-sharp. At some point he showed me the neat trick of playing a scale up from 2nd octave D, but when reaching A, shifting fingering back down to D, and playing on up the scale using the harmonics a 5th above the fingered notes. Then there was Fanny Powers up an octave.
Anyway, I agree with others in this thread that there is no trick to doing what you want to do. It comes with developing embouchure control and breathe support through useful exercises.