Boehm vs. Simple Flutes

Guthrum · Post by **Guthrum** » Tue Jul 01, 2003 5:59 am

If this has been asked here before (I'm sure that is has) I apologize. I'm just starting on flutes. I have been playing whistles for quite a while so it's not much of a jump for me to switch to a keyless flute. I bought one the other day and can play it with reasonable success. My question is the fingerings on a Boehm flute. I looked at a fingering chart and it looks scary. The reason I'm considering one is that I'd like to play some concert pieces and also some tunes that are more modern that what I've played in the past.

How similar is the fingering on a Boehm flute to a more traditional style? I've seen them at pawn shops for not all that much money. But money is an issue for me at this time as well. Does anyone here have experience with both that can let me know what to expect?

Thanks for helping the new guy who probably asks all the questions that you folks have answered a hundred times and are tired of answering by now.

thanks

jd

peeplj · Post by **peeplj** » Tue Jul 01, 2003 6:06 am

The fingering in the first 2 octaves is "somewhat similar." The 3rd octave is completely different.

That said, the fingerings are not that bad. Looking at a fingering chart of any modern instrument can make you shudder; however, when actually learning the notes on the instrument it's not that bad.

That said, you should be aware that nearly all the pawn shop flutes are going to have questionable pads, iffy adjustment, and likely won't play well (or at all)--and it takes several hundred dollars (at least) to get one playing nicely--unless you get lucky. If you know a flutist, get them to go with you and try the instruments.

Alternately, you may want to consider a keyed simple-system flute, which will also allow you to play in all genres of music. Nice keyed Irish flutes are far less expen$ive than their quality Boehm-system cousins.

Best,

--James

claudine · Post by **claudine** » Tue Jul 01, 2003 6:07 am

hi Guthrum,
the fingering on the Boehm flute is a bit more complicated. You just have to be patient (patience = my new philosophy) and take your time when getting used to that fingering. Do not try to learn all the notes in one week. Learn the basic notes, and only when they have become an automatism, go on to learn the next few notes. The problem for me is mainly the 5th finger of the right hand, who is used to lazyness from the wooden flute. The left thumb will be busy too, and this can make your grip of the flute unstable at first. You'll get used to it after a few month of serious practice.
On the other hand, the blowing part is easier on the Boehm flute.
good luck
- claudine -

Guthrum · Post by **Guthrum** » Tue Jul 01, 2003 6:36 am

Thanks for the quick responses guys. I guess my main issue is that I know little or nothing about flutes. The little experience I have is with whistles. The one I bought was a bamboo flute at a craft fair near where I live. It's easy enough to play. I can already play the few whistle songs I know on it and overblow to the 2nd octave easily enough. The problem is that it has sort of a Native American sound. I'm not sure if that comes from the fact that it's bamboo or just that I don't really know how to play it yet. It looks nothing like the flutes seen on this site. http://www.firescribble.net/flute/choosing.htmlEven if they didnt have the keys on them.

What do you folks think about PVC flutes? Are they ok for learning to play traditional-type Irish music? Should I be ok buying something cheap like that to learn on and then perhaps getting a keyed simple-system flute later on? Or would I end up having to re-learn a lot of what I had learned in the past?

That said, can anyone recommend a fairly cheap wooden or PVC flute that would do for a virtual beginner?

thanks again all

jd

msheldon · Post by **msheldon** » Tue Jul 01, 2003 7:32 am

peeplj wrote:Nice keyed Irish flutes are far less expen$ive than their quality Boehm-system cousins.

Um, in which world is this?

Most 8-key Irish flutes of any quality I've seen run upwards of $1,600 new, and are rarely available used for any less. As opposed to a sterling silver flute which will run around $1,000 new, and are widely available in very nice condition for around $500.

And we won't even mention the waiting lists for getting a good 8-key Irish flute...

Gordon · Post by **Gordon** » Tue Jul 01, 2003 8:02 am

Gotta go with Michael on this one. A very good, playable modern flute is far more affordable than a quality keyed conical (try saying that 10X fast!). In addition, the modern (Boehm) system is quite easy to finger, in spite of the daunting charts, considering it is a chart for a fully chromatic scale. Try following a chromatic chart for a keyed conical! I still don't get why some puzzle over the Boehm's (relatively) rapid takeover for professional classical musicians, completely eclipsing the conical in less than fifty years. Unkeyed, of course, the conical becomes a relatively "simple" system, and is indesputably best for trad music, but then it also becomes impractical chromatically (unlike a traverso, which is a different topic entirely). And, generally speaking, the modern flute is easier to blow, assuming that trad tone isn't what you're after.
I don't think these systems should be compared for ease of use, rather they should utilized for what they do well. Money is a major issue for most of us. If you're playing ITM, spend it on a decent keyless conical. If you must be fully chromatic, and still play trad music almost exclusively, you're going to have to spend much more on a new keyed flute. You might luck into a good keyed German flute for under $500, but they vary in quality and you'd really need to have a good player test-drive it; some really aren't playable, while others are seriously underrated.
If you play a variety of music, from ITM to classical, to blues, jazz etc., and basically dabble and aren't interested in being a hard-core trad player, you can buy an intermediate, brand new modern flute with a silver head for as little as $500, or a used one for less, and play pretty much anything you want.
Of course, if you do that, you'll have to leave this forum immediately.

Gordon

mrosenlof · Post by **mrosenlof** » Tue Jul 01, 2003 8:16 am

PVC flutes -- the type made from plumbing pipe can be very inexpensive, and a decent way to learn if you really want to continue with the flute. They are also much more difficult to play in tune than a conical bore flute, but for a while at least, that's not the most important thing you worry about.

Your next jump up in price could be to some of the very well made bamboo flutes. Patrick Olwell, Erik the Flutemaker, and a few others make bamboo flutes that get pretty good reviews. These are mostly around $100, maybe a little less.

For some more money, you can get a keyless flute like the Dixon. It gets pretty good reviews around here for about $200. This is also a plastic flute, but it is turned on a lathe from rod stock, has a conical bore, and should be a much nicer instrument than the cheap PVC pipe flute.

From this point, you can spend almost as much as you want...

You can probably get a decent new Bohm flute for as little as $400. The fingerings are really not difficult, especially in the bottom two octaves. It may be easier to find a teacher for this instrument than the keyless flute. They're both called flutes, but they really are different instruments, with strong and weak points of both.

Guthrum · Post by **Guthrum** » Tue Jul 01, 2003 8:28 am

Thanks again all. Nice to find friendly folks on a forum.

jim stone · Post by **jim stone** » Tue Jul 01, 2003 8:39 am

You can play most ITM, and a good deal of other music,
on a keyless simple system flute. Also learning to play
the SS flute effectively, getting a good embouchure,
ornamenting, and so on, will take you a fair amount of
time. The knowledge of the whistle is a big help,
but it's just the beginning of the flute. You may not
miss keys initially, cause you will be busy enough
without them.

A good way to progress is to start with the Dixon,
mentioned above, at 200. It handles enough like
a wooden flute that you will be learning to play
one. Also of value, better in fact, is the Seery
and the MandE polymer flutes, which are even
more like wooden flutes and are good in their
own right.

Play these, see if it's for you, and if it is
get on a waiting list for a blackwood flute
(keyed or unkeyed). Any polymer flute you
buy in the meantime is sellable at a good price.

If you buy unkeyed blackwood, many makers
will retrofit for keys.

The main thing is that it may be a bit ambitious
trying to start on a keyed Irish flute, you may
be better off without.

While I've played many bamboo flutes,
I haven't really liked learning to play
an Irish flute on bamboo--it may be better
to go straight for something more like what you
want to end up with.

As to the silver flute, the Irish flute sounds
and handles nothing like it--and if you find yourself
going down the Irish path, well, the silver flute
may turn out not to be so satisfying.
I play lots of different music and flirted
with buying a silver flute--but decided against it.
No regrets.

But if you are really interested in classical,
etc.--if it's the ability to play Bach or
Telemann or whatever that matters to you,
then the silver flute is almost certainly
the way to go. Hope this helps.

Searches on Dixon, polymer, Seery, MandE,
Copley, Olwell should be helpful.

Cariad · Post by **Cariad** » Tue Jul 01, 2003 11:11 am

mrosenlof wrote: You can probably get a decent new Bohm flute for as little as $400. The fingerings are really not difficult, especially in the bottom two octaves. It may be easier to find a teacher for this instrument than the keyless flute. They're both called flutes, but they really are different instruments, with strong and weak points of both.

Hi there
I agree with this - I am coming to new to simple system from bohm flute (I did 2 years lessons as a kid 30 years ago on Bohm at school and then restarted 18 months ago and I've managed to get to around grade 6 classical in that time so if I can do that anyone can, don't let the scary finger charts put you off!) However since I came to Wales and love the trad music here I really wanted a trad instrument. I got a Dixon polymer 2 weeks ago and its really not too difficult (whilst I wait for a 5 key Blackwood Lehart) I'm doing some ITM too and bits of many other styles including jazz - wide range of taste - so the 2 flutes are really good to have for the different types of music BUT what I do is to always have it in my head that they are 2 different instruments (which they are) and that way things don't get confused.

Good luck - go for it!
Cariad

strayaway child · Post by **strayaway child** » Tue Jul 01, 2003 8:46 pm

Guthrum, I started out like you on the whistle, then went to the simple system flute (Olwell bamboo,then M&E polymer) and after 6 months with simple system, started playing Boehm system flute as well. The silver flute fingering wasn't that much of an issue and you learn to appreciate the ability to play chromatically on the non trad stuff. It helps to take a lesson or two and to be patiently persistent. I agree that the Boehm flute is "easier to blow", and that a good silver flute is more affordable than a good keyed simple system flute (having priced both and bought one). For the trad stuff I play simple system almost exclusively, even more so now that the Olwell Pratton has arrived. This approach works for me. Don't know if this will help you make your decision though. Good luck.

Al

mrosenlof · Post by **mrosenlof** » Tue Jul 01, 2003 11:36 pm

I agree with most of what I've seen here, but the question of what's less expensive, a Bohm flute or a simple system keyed wooden flute, is not quite so clear.

I think I would be much happier playing a $500 Bohm flute (at least _some_ models!) than playing a $500 6 or 8 key wooden flute. The miracles of modern manufacturing just haven't been applied to the wooden flute like they have to the Bohm variety.

On the other hand, you can buy an 8 key GRIESSLING & SCHLOTT Berlin, made by Peter Noy for $3515 after some period of waiting. I've picked this one because I found his web page easily, but many agree that Mr. Noy makes some absolutely fabulous flutes. In the Bohm flute world, that same $3515 gets you a pretty low end professional model flute.

At some point, when you become ready for a very high-end instrument, the Bohm flute will cost you more than a simple system keyed model.

I played a $17,000 Powell once. Lovely feel to the mechanism. Of course I don't have the ability to make it sound any better than my mid-range Yamaha.

peeplj · Post by **peeplj** » Wed Jul 02, 2003 7:30 am

With Boehm-system flutes, you get what you pay for.

Good intermediate-level instruments start at about $1600 and go up from there. For a really good Boehm-system flute, plan on paying at least $3000.

Yes, you can get a Boehm-system flute for $500. Whether or not it's a good idea to do so is an entirely different question.

--James

JessieK · Post by **JessieK** » Wed Jul 02, 2003 8:13 am

Ok, I have something to add. While you can spend a fortune on a handmade Boehm flute and get a real treasure of an instrument, you can also get lucky and find a cheap ($200-ish) silverplated flute that plays great. Try local instrument shops that let you try before you buy. I lucked out on a Blessing flute (at MARS) that plays almost as well as several handmade Boehm flutes that I have. In fact, it's lighter in weight and that makes it easier to play for longer. A $200 Boehm flute is WORLDS better than a $200 Irish flute.

Something that nobody has mentioned is that the fingering differences are minimal. In the first and second octaves (the only ones used in almost all Irish traditional music), there are only two differences. The F# is fingered with (and you have a choice of) either the right ring finger or the right middle finger (instead of the right index finger) and the C natural is fingered with the left index finger (and you remove the left thumb) instead of other C natural fingerings. Not a big deal. Classical players are taught to use the Eb key to vent all notes except D, but I think the only loss (in the first and second octaves) if you don't use it is a slightly weaker second octave e note.

Also, it is much easier to play chromatic on a Boehm flute than on a keyed simple system flute.

~Jessie

msheldon · Post by **msheldon** » Wed Jul 02, 2003 1:35 pm

peeplj wrote:With Boehm-system flutes, you get what you pay for.

Good intermediate-level instruments start at about $1600 and go up from there. For a really good Boehm-system flute, plan on paying at least $3000.

Yes, you can get a Boehm-system flute for $500. Whether or not it's a good idea to do so is an entirely different question.

--James

Yes, and no.

The difference in sound between a $500 Boehm and a $3,000 Boehm is minimal to the average non-pro listener. Yes, it's better, but it's relative.

The difference in sound between a $500 keyed simple-system flute and a $3,000 keyed simple-system flute is immense, and easily discernable by a half-deaf tortoise.

A friend of mine plays professionally. She's got a REALLY nice boehm flute currently valued somewhere around $10,000. (She actually let me touch it once.

) She's also got an Armstrong Model 80 (Solid sterling head and body). Yes, I can tell the difference between them, but I have to be paying attention.

I got my Armstrong 80 used for $500.