Stupid question? Diff btwn fife & flute?

Kar · Post by **Kar** » Thu Jul 03, 2003 1:19 pm

I've been playing whistle for about a year and half and would like to learn flute. I have about $50 to play with and was thinking of getting a Ralph Sweet Maple Renaissance Fife.

My questions are:
1) Is this a decent instrument to tackle embrocure learning on?
and
2) What the hell is the difference between a flute and a fife? Is a fife just a small flute? I have looked everywhere and NO ONE seems to want to state this explicitly. I feel stupid for asking.

Should I even ask....then what's a piccalo?

bradhurley · Post by **bradhurley** » Thu Jul 03, 2003 1:39 pm

In general, a modern fife is a small flute in the key of Bb. However, I think Ralph makes some "fifes" in the key of D, so it would be best to check with him.

These things are loud (obnoxiously so in sessions) and are meant to be played in the second and third octaves, although you can play it in the first and second just like a normal flute and it's easier on the ears.

The D "fifes" are really loud even in the second octave...they'll develop your embouchure for the flute but it's really not the same as playing flute. I remember Skip Healy saying he had a hard time switching between fife and flute when he played the two instruments in concerts.

Jayhawk · Post by **Jayhawk** » Thu Jul 03, 2003 1:44 pm

The biggest difference between a flute and a fife is size. Fifes are smaller (traditionally Bb although current makers have them in keys from G to high D). The traditional Irish/wooden flute is usually in the key of D (one ocatve down from the fife or whistle).

Sometimes fifes are cylindrical instead of conical like the better wooden flutes are, but Sweet makes several conical fifes, too.

Piccalos are not much different than Sweet's folk fife in D. In general, Piccalos are usually in high D or C.

Anyway, as to Ralph's renaissance fife, I just sold one a month or so ago to finance a new flute. I really liked it a lot. It's cylindrical, but mine was well in tune in the first two octaves. It had good large holes for easy half-holing of accidentals. All in all well worth the very low price.

If you have $50 to play with, and you're thinking about a flute in the future, I might consider either saving a bit and getting one of Patrick Olwells bamboo flutes in D (I think they go for about $85) or one of Doug Tipples PVC flutes from eBay which get good reviews for a starter flute or one of Hammy Hamilton's metal starter flutes (not sure of the price, but I think they're less than $100) or try one of Calmont's flutes sold on eBay which a few members have recently said good things about (and his sound clip sounds good on his eBay store).

Just some ideas - I'm not trying to say don't buy the Sweetheart renaissance fife because it really is a fine instrument, but to me if you're thinking you want a flute, well, I'd start off with a flute of some sort.

Eric

jim stone · Post by **jim stone** » Thu Jul 03, 2003 2:21 pm

Many of Sweet's fifes are basically small conical flutes,
so his G fife is a flute. These get played like flutes,
so they are unlike the military fifes, usually in Bb, which
are played in the second and third octave. (Sweet makes
those too.)

Generally embouchure is going to be harder
on a higher flute than on a lower one, so it may be
better to save your money and get a (low) D
flute. The higher flutes require a tighter
embouchure. There are bamboo options other
than Olwells, too. If you want to learn flute,
I agree that a D flute (some sort) is the best way to go.
You'll get one anyway, before long.

You can lose money trying to save it in this
business.

Harry · Post by **Harry** » Thu Jul 03, 2003 3:21 pm

We've discussed this before on this forum I think. The Irish and American definitions of a fife seem to differ. The term is used comparitively loosely in the U.S. to describe any manner of small traverse 'flutes' (or fifes as the case would there be).

In Ireland the fife is historically an older, straight bored one peice instrument in or around the key of B which pre dates the conically bored flute and the smaller conical bored marching band flute. As Jim mentions it was traditionally played in what we would consider the second and third octaves (the third octave being achieved with elaborate cross fingerings).

The instrument's last stronghold here, the loyalist orange marching bands in the North of Ireland, now almost exclusively prefers the conical marching band flutes to the fifes, but the distinction between the types of instrument remains quite clear. It was once very popular all across this country and many fife and drum bands existed at a parish level.

Regards, Harry.

Kar · Post by **Kar** » Thu Jul 03, 2003 4:38 pm

Well, this certainly clears up a lot of my questions! Thanks, everyone. Y'all were so nice!

Cariad · Post by **Cariad** » Thu Jul 03, 2003 4:54 pm

Hello Kar

I play a Sweet rosewood piccolo in D which I really like. I got it before I could afford a simple system flute (got my first 2 weeks ago - Dixon 3 pc polymer whilst I wait for a handmade blackwood) and I am now playing exactly the same music I learnt on the piccolo on the Dixon.(If you have very small hands a Sweet D piccolo is a good alternative to a full size flute!) I originally was going to get maple because it was a bit cheaper but the company I ordered from (Hobgoblin Music who I think also have a store - and mail order in America) discontinued maple as in their experience they tend to shatter in the post!

When my flute teacher saw my piccolo, he said its really more like a fife which is what the WTM we now play on the simple system flute would have originally been played on. (As well as on the now rediscovered Welsh Bagpipes)

I played boehm system flute before this piccolo and when I got the piccolo it took me a good 3 weeks to get the blowing angle and embouchure to produce a good strong tone - and yes this is also loud and punchy, but you can also play it quietlyand very sweetly!!! I found it much easier and quicker to get the notes out on the full size flute but maybe that's because I put so much effort into it with the piccolo beforehand....

I found it was disasterous to try and play on boehm system flute and switch immediately to the piccolo for another piece - couldn't handle the differences quickly enough at the point but I don't know about switching between the piccolo and the Dixon yet - but they are more similar - I always think of them and treat them as different instruments now (as mentioned elsewhere in the flute forum)

Good luck in sifting through all the info you are getting!!
Cariad

Blackbeer · Post by **Blackbeer** » Thu Jul 03, 2003 5:44 pm

Well I`m going to take a chance hear Kar and say this. Don`t buy a fife!! If you have never played a flute type instument it will drive you to drink. Heck I have a rosewood fife I`ll lone you to prove it. Take your fifty bucks and give it to Alan Mount. Offset holes, wounderful tone and easy to play. I haven`t tried the others mentioned but I do know you can`t go wrong with one of Alans. I couldn`t get a note out of my fifes until I had been playing flute for 3 or 4 months. Check out Erik the Flute Maker, his are good and reasonable, or lets see Sunreed Instruments, Zacciah makes pretty nice bamboo flutes. I think either of those guys will offset the holes if you have small hands or start with a G or maybe a F. Just my two cents worth

Tom

Kar · Post by **Kar** » Fri Jul 04, 2003 11:40 am

I'm glad someone mentioned the problem of hand size and hole span. I have REALLY small hands. With a stretch, I can play a Dixon Low G whistle but it's a reach. So....I actually just got a bamboo flute from Erik the Flutemaker (a medium-size Arabian Flute--I play some Middle Eastern music so it seemed like a fun key). I got it at least to make a sound (albeit, a not very nice one) after about ten minutes of trying, but the hand span required is SO out of my league. I am going to trade it for Erik's smaller-sized Arabian flute--which I guess, will really be more fife-like than flute like.

I was just thinking it would be nice to have a flute/fife in D. There's no way I can ever play a Low D whistle--I've tried and can't even come close. Does that mean I can't ever play a D flute? I mean, are the holes spaced closer on a flute than they are on a whistle?

Also, part of the reason I was looking at the Sweet Ren Fife was that someone gave me a $45 gift cert to the Whistle Shop and I've got most of the cheapie whistles they carry and still can't afford any of the high-enders so I thought this might be a fun thing. But I certainly don't want hours of frustration....

Jayhawk · Post by **Jayhawk** » Fri Jul 04, 2003 2:02 pm

I really don't think you'll have hours of frustration with the Sweetheart renaissance fife. It's really a nice little instrument, and you can't beat the price. I found it pretty easy to get a good sound out of and that was before I was playing flute.

If small hands are an issue, this fife is ideal. Plus, the holes are large enough it's much easier to half hole notes than on most whistles...

Eric

Cariad · Post by **Cariad** » Fri Jul 04, 2003 6:18 pm

HI Kar
Regarding hand size etc have a look in the topic 'Beginner looking at LEC /RR etc' (last month) pgs 1&2 - few things there as I was asking about it before ordering (I live in the sticks - not many shops never mind music shops or flute makers - so couldn't actually try any except my teachers)
best
Cariad

jim_mc · Post by **jim_mc** » Sun Jul 06, 2003 4:49 am

In the strictest sense, the fife is a discant rennaissance flute. Ren flutes were played in consort, and the discant was pitched somewhere around A or B. Six holes, simple system, regularly sized small tone holes, straight (cylindrical) bore. They got taken out of the consort and played into the third octave by Swiss mercenaries around the 16th century. They were used then (and for several hundred years afterward) to signal troops on the battlefield.

The ren flute evolved into the baroque flute, and then the classical (Irish) flute, and then the Boehm (modern) flute. The fife stayed as it was up until right around the time of Boehm. Then, finally, Nicholson's influence on flute makers took hold with fife makers, and they began to experiment with tone hole size. In the second half of the 19th century, fifes began to appear with one key (for D#/E flat). But by that time, the fife was being replaced by the bugle for military use. During the late 19th and into the 20th century there was a huge resurgence in fife playing in the U.S., especially in the Connecticut River valley area, where Civil War style fifing and drumming developed into what is now known as the Ancient style of fifing and drumming.

Ancients aren't reenactors - they don't value strict adherence to the music, dress or style of a particular period. They are more interested in wearing costumes that suggest a particular incident or time period in American history, and playing music that is consistent with the Ancient canon. The point of my explaining that is to explain that Ancients haven't been opposed to changes in the fife itself. So there are now conical bore, two piece fifes being played by many ancients. One of the most popular fifes now in use in the Ancient community actually uses a bore design and tone hole placement based on the Boehm schema. The funny thing is that fifes of these two different designs and the original fife design can all be played together and sound fine. So although Ancients call themselves fifers, they may technically be playing simple system B flat Boehm piccolos, or classical B flat piccolos. These fifers identify themselves more by their style of playing than by the technical specifications of their instruments. It makes it hard to put a name on the darn things.

JohnMulgrew · Post by **JohnMulgrew** » Tue Jul 08, 2003 8:02 am

I just bought my 9 year old daughter Kelsey a Sweet Renassaince fife (in d). She's been playing viola for 4 years and plays whistle as well and kept wanting to play my wife renassaince flutes. Kelsie had no problems at all with the fife and within minutes was playing tunes like Britches Full of Stitches, Maggie Pickens, Paper Plate, etc. on it. The fife sounds great. Lately, she has been sounding out all different tunes as well (some renassaince tunes, the theme from Harry Potter, etc. ). I think her whistle is getting lonely. Overall, although I can compare it to anything, I'd say it's an excellent instument, especially for the price.

brad maloney · Post by **brad maloney** » Tue Jul 08, 2003 11:59 am

I asked Skip Healy what the "meaning of fife" was & he took me by the shoulder & said "That is a good question!" he said a fife is a mezzo-soprano, generally anything between (I think) G & Db is in the mezzo-soprano range. Which makes a high D or higher a true piccolo & anything lower than a G a flute.

So according to that advice it doesn't matter what key system or bore type the thing has, it's a matter of range.

jim_mc · Post by **jim_mc** » Wed Jul 09, 2003 8:44 am

brad maloney wrote:I asked Skip Healy what the "meaning of fife" was & he took me by the shoulder & said "That is a good question!" he said a fife is a mezzo-soprano, generally anything between (I think) G & Db is in the mezzo-soprano range. Which makes a high D or higher a true piccolo & anything lower than a G a flute.

So according to that advice it doesn't matter what key system or bore type the thing has, it's a matter of range.

Brad, with all due respect to Skip, he would say this because the instruments he sells as fifes are actually simple system Boehm bore piccolos, pitched in B flat. His piccolos are also simple system Boehm bore instruments. So for Skip's line of products, the only difference is the range. Other makers and players, and history and tradition, show other distinctions.

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