Keening of the Three Marys

avalk · Post by **avalk** » Mon Aug 25, 2003 8:30 am

I love Todd Benman's rendition of the "Keening of the Three Marys"
on the CD "Celtic Requiem". Does anyone know where I can get
the music for this song (I would also love to have guitar chords with it)?

anima · Post by **anima** » Mon Aug 25, 2003 12:53 pm

"Ireland's Best slow Airs" has a tune called Caoineadh na dTri Muire which translates out as the Lament of the Three Marys.

I can send you a transcription and an mp3 for you to compare if you like. PM me your email address if interested

It's an easy tune to play.

jeff

Calum · Post by **Calum** » Mon Aug 25, 2003 2:53 pm

Try looking also for a Scots song called both the three and the four Maries. The song relates the story of a maid in the service of Mary Queen of Scots, condemned to death for some obscure reason which escapes me. The tune is vey simple but attractive, and fits on a GHB scale, so it'll work on Irish pipes as well, so it's quite likely to be your tune.

Cheers,
Calum

Kevin L. Rietmann · Post by **Kevin L. Rietmann** » Mon Aug 25, 2003 3:59 pm

The Lament of the three Marys, Caoineadh na dTri Muire, is a song from Connemara in West Galway whose subject is the three women who lamented the death of Christ - the Virigin Mary, Mary Magdalen, and one other. It was recorded once or twice by Joe Heaney.

elbogo · Post by **elbogo** » Mon Aug 25, 2003 6:23 pm

I heard Todd Denman playing this at the San Francisco Tionol concert in Feb., this year, and it was simply beautiful... but 3 or 4 times as long!

Jeff could you send me the same? Thanks.

j dasinger · Post by **j dasinger** » Mon Aug 25, 2003 6:55 pm

Just to make it clear, "Keening of the Three Mary's" and "Caoineadh na dTri Mhuire" are (supposed to be) the same tune.
Now to muddy the waters a bit. I learned to play a version which I got from sean nos singer Iarla O'Lionard's solo album. I then played this version for Todd Denman and he barely recognized it as the same tune (it wasn't just my playing, honest!). When I heard T.D. play it live, I asked Lilis O'Laoire, a sean nos singer who was there, what he thought of this piping version. He said he didn't recognize Todd's version as the "Caoineadh" that he knew. Todd said he got the version he plays from Denis Brooks originally, although I'm sure there's a lot of unique Todd stuff in there as well. Anyway, the upshot is that there seems to be a piping version and a singing version floating about. So beware if you play it in front of singers!

If you get it from sheet music, it might diverge quite a bit from Todd's version that you liked. If you really want to play that version, try to get it from the CD. If you have trouble getting stuff by ear, maybe your teacher of a friend can help you out. If you haven't got stuff by ear before, you might as well begin with a slow tune like this one. Good luck!
jd

PS When Todd plays it on the whistle it sounds quite a bit different than when he plays it on pipes. Go figure!

djm · Post by **djm** » Mon Aug 25, 2003 7:40 pm

James, you've really hit the crux of the problem for many of us regarding the playing of airs. To play an air "correctly" one should be following the sung sean-nós version.

However, there are many airs that have not been recorded by singers, but for which there are lots of note transcriptions. There are even more airs that don't have lyrics. How would we, on this side of the pond, know what version is correct, since there is so little sean-nós singing going on here? Then again, too, there are many sean-nós singers who have individualized their version of some tunes so much that even other singers don't recognize them. How can we tell what is a kosher version?

I would guess that if one were going to learn an air from a recording, whether sung or played, the older the recorded version of an air, the more likely that version is to be correct.

But I could be wrong. Any takers?

djm

anima · Post by **anima** » Mon Aug 25, 2003 8:06 pm

Hi,

I put a jpg (prints out nicely at 8x11 but may look lousy on the screen) and a generic mp3 here:

http://www.animavitae.com/marys/

let me know if this jibes wtih what everyone else knows (this version comes from Walton's Best slow Airs of Ireland)

Jeff

elbogo · Post by **elbogo** » Mon Aug 25, 2003 8:12 pm

I think one learns to play and master the version that touches you most, but learn the other, perhaps older versions as well. These things evolve over time, I would think, and each person brings a little something new to it, sometimes making it quite their own. What does make the tune is a certain melody or refrain that makes the tune what it is, having been there from the first ... It might be interesting to compare these different versions of Keening, and hear them played, side by side. Anyone up for that?

elbogo · Post by **elbogo** » Mon Aug 25, 2003 9:07 pm

There does seem to be some kind of story here, about this air... A search brought several things of interest, perhaps several mispronounciations, through language differences... several songs with somewhat similar titles, all sung by Noirin Ni Riain:

Caoineadh (The Lament)
Caoineadh Eoin Rua (Lament for Eoin Rua)
Caoineadh Mhuire: Mary's Keen
Caoineadh Na Haoine: Friday Lament
Caoineadh Na Maighdine: The Blessed Virgin's Keening
Caoineadh: The Keen

And, having just seen Afro Celts at Irish Fest, I was surprised to find this: The lead singer of the Celts, Iarla Ó Lionáird, is also supposedly one of Irelands finest Sean Nos singers. He has a version (as j.dasinger mentions above) of Caoineadh Na dTrí Mhuire (Lament At Calvary) on his CD The Seven Steps To Mercy (real world records).

So there. Now if Todd is reading this, perhaps we could get him to write out his notation for the version he did at the concert in San Francisco!! Todd...?

Kevin L. Rietmann · Post by **Kevin L. Rietmann** » Tue Aug 26, 2003 2:27 am

Sometimes an air can be associated with an entirely different set of words, such as Una Bhan, which I've heard sung to three different airs. This is probably the source of the confusion.

The Sporting Pitchfork · Tue Aug 26, 2003 10:01 am

elbogo wrote:There does seem to be some kind of story here, about this air... A search brought several things of interest, perhaps several mispronounciations, through language differences... several songs with somewhat similar titles, all sung by Noirin Ni Riain:

Caoineadh (The Lament)
Caoineadh Eoin Rua (Lament for Eoin Rua)
Caoineadh Mhuire: Mary's Keen
Caoineadh Na Haoine: Friday Lament
Caoineadh Na Maighdine: The Blessed Virgin's Keening
Caoineadh: The Keen

And, having just seen Afro Celts at Irish Fest, I was surprised to find this: The lead singer of the Celts, Iarla Ó Lionáird, is also supposedly one of Irelands finest Sean Nos singers. He has a version (as j.dasinger mentions above) of Caoineadh Na dTrí Mhuire (Lament At Calvary) on his CD The Seven Steps To Mercy (real world records).

So there. Now if Todd is reading this, perhaps we could get him to write out his notation for the version he did at the concert in San Francisco!! Todd...?

The word "caoineadh" means lament in Irish, hence the profound number of songs with it in the title. Interesting that all of those were recorded by one singer though. Sounds like a depressing record.

Certainly songs can float around with a huge variety of different airs and variations of airs. Something tells me that Todd Denman's version probably does not sound a whole lot like any of the sung varieties out there--not that I'm slighting him or anything. People are free to take a piece of music and go nuts with it and the results can certainly be appealing. However, when you get a musician who is also a knowledgeable singer (such as Seamus Ennis, Cathal McConnell, Marcas O Murchu, Allan MacDonald, etc.), it really does show in their playing.

djm · Post by **djm** » Tue Aug 26, 2003 11:03 am

As I understand it, the people who object most to an "uninformed" version of an Irish air are the people who actually know the tune and the lyrics. They try to sing along in their heads as you're playing. They are familiar with how the song is sung, so they can follow along with your minor variations. As a non-Gaelic speaker, and having only a limited number of amhrain sean-nós CDs, I am unable to appreciate these nuances or the unwritten rules of Connemara singing.

However, I can understand these peoples' sentiments about me hacking up their favourite tunes. Ever heard an Asian band trying to play your favourite rock 'n' roll standards? Painful! So I really can't blame those who know better cringing when I play what I think might be an approximation of an Irish air.

It would be a big help to me (if to no other UPer) to see someone explain each song, pronunciations, and especially the timing and emphasis. I have a little bit of stuff like this, but it nowhere near covers the range of airs available.

Anyone know any good sources?

djm

malanstevenson · Post by **malanstevenson** » Tue Aug 26, 2003 1:21 pm

djm wrote:
It would be a big help to me (if to no other UPer) to see someone explain each song, pronunciations, and especially the timing and emphasis. I have a little bit of stuff like this, but it nowhere near covers the range of airs available.

Anyone know any good sources?

djm

DJM,
There's one book by Mary McLaughlin called "Singing in Irish Gaelic" which I bought for my daughter (Mel Bay Publications, ISBN 0786617071 ). Comes with the notation, phonetic renditions of lyrics, and a CD with the songs spoken and then sung at normal speed, and then broken down into phrases. The contents can be viewed at http://www.marymclaughlin.com/irishbookdemo.html

Ossian also issues both the above-mentioned Noirin Ni Riain CD and a songbook to go along with it - Caoineadh na Maighdine http://www.ossian.ie/books_details.eliv ... ku=BK10263

Mark

djm · Post by **djm** » Tue Aug 26, 2003 9:43 pm

Mark, thanks. I already have the Karen McLaughlin book&CD, which is what I was referring to earlier. I will also look into the second one you recommend.

Thx,

djm