Glottal stops vs tonguing on Irish flute

[peeplj]

Here is my take on tonguing when playing Irish flute. This is the same reel, "You Never Saw Her Equal," played first completely legato, then legato with breath pulsing, then with breath pulses and glottal stops, then finally with breath pulsing and tonguing, played on my Hamilton blackwood.

http://www.flutesite.com/samples/glottal_v_tongue.mp3

Needless to say, I am not a fan of tonguing on the Irish flute.

However, I am classically trained, and in classical music, using glottal stops is every bit as out of place as using tonguing when playing in the Tradition.

--James

[Dana]

Very interesting. With my admittedly classical framework, I liked the rendition best with the breath pulses alone. I just can't get into the glottal stops, but I didn't like the one with the tonguing either.

Dana

[sboag]

I'm more interested in the use of tonguing in jigs... the use of tonguing in the reel you posted seem clearly inappropriate (but this is coming from a beginner). For instance, My Darling Asleep, where tonging sounds rather nice (ha-ta-daa for the jig accent), and I don't think glottal stops are so appropriate (I've been taught to use glottal stops more to accent the end of a phrase). While I tend to avoid tonguing in most cases, in some uses it doesn't seem all that evil, and I'm not sure what a really appropriate alternative would be.

I'm still not sure what to make of the "don't tongue in the name of ITM purity" thing.

In any case, I'm curious about ways that don't use tonguing to accent jigs, in that way Steve talks about them on http://www.rogermillington.com/siamsa/b ... ricky.html for whistles - his SST pattern. In my ramblings I've not come across this same sort of discussion for flutes.

[peeplj]

Well, here's an old bog-standard jig for ya, first with glottals, then with tonguing.

I suppose tonguing works, but I really prefer glottals.

http://www.flutesite.com/samples/ramblin_tongue.mp3

--James

[BillG]

Once again the personal preference edge slips in. I'm from classical flute and fife where tonguing is critical. Since switching to the Irish flute I put tonguing away - hard to do at first - in favor of glottal stops. My tongue got used to it, I guess. When I pick up a fife the tongue seems to say, "Oh boy, I'm back in business!" and off it goes. I find it uncomfortable to use the tongue on the Irish flute now as it seems to get in the way.

Interestingly enough, I began using glottal stops on the chromatic harmonica and found it is a super artuculation technique there. When I mentioned it on slidemeister.com I found a few others used it and many others were interested in learning it. Some thought it a useless addition to the chromatic harmoica - personal preference again.

Not everyone can - or wants to - deal with glottal. Unless you're playing with specific a group whatever you prefer is best.

Jim, your mp3's are great for demonstrating all three techniques and thanx for putting them up. I didn't think tonguing was the way for either tunes.

BillG

[peeplj]

You are welcome!

By the way, my demos aren't meant to say that no flutist can make tonguing work in trad music. All they show is that I can't.

On the flip side, classical played with glottals instead of tonguing sounds very wrong to me, as well. I would never play the Bach no. 2 in B-minor using glottals, for instance--to me, it would sound a bit...uh...grunty, I guess.

Best wishes to all,

--James

[glauber]

I'm still not sure what to make of the "don't tongue in the name of ITM purity" thing.

It's one of those things you must accept with humility when you're learning. It's part of the learning experience.

Flute and whistle technique are similar only to a certain point. On whistle, people think you're weird if you don't tongue the notes.

[Henke]

I'm more interested in the use of tonguing in jigs... the use of tonguing in the reel you posted seem clearly inappropriate (but this is coming from a beginner). For instance, My Darling Asleep, where tonging sounds rather nice (ha-ta-daa for the jig accent)

I used to tounge a lot in jigs as well, because I couldn't come up with a better way to deal with jigs. Legato simply dosn't work when you have to separate so many notes so fast as is often the case in jigs. But a while back I started to learn cuts and taps really good. I got adviced to use cuts where ever possible as a better alternative to tonguing. Now I put in cuts at most places where I would tounge before to separate the notes and at someplaces where it fits I use rolls instead. It really works great, the sound is a lot more Irish traditional. It's fun to play the Kesh Jig or the Blackthorn Stick without using the tounge at all. Try it...

[sboag]

Well, here's an old bog-standard jig for ya, first with glottals, then with tonguing.

I'm not sure I get the proper lazy jig feel from either one (though, again, I'm not qualified to say for sure). I really don't think glottals work well for the "ta-daa" accent in jigs, but it would be good to find a really beautiful rendition of a jig where I knew it was used.

By the way, my demos aren't meant to say that no flutist can make tonguing work in trad music. All they show is that I can't.

My teacher has been trying to get me to a real "ta-daa" rather than just 'ta-ta", and when she does it, it sounds really beautiful, crisp, and appropriate, though a different effect than using cuts.

It's fun to play the Kesh Jig or the Blackthorn Stick without using the tounge at all. Try it...

I do use tonguing on both of these, though not so much for the jig accent, but to break up just a couple significant notes. I am trying it tonight, also on the Rambling Pitchfork, where I use it in similar fashion. I at least want to be able to do it both ways -- by choice. But I think it's very tune dependent -- an example is the Black Rogue, where tonging can work but it's much better with a pipers feel. On the flute, I think I only use the tongue to accent jigs in two tunes, and a few other very selective places as an ornament variation. But, my point is, so far it feels to me like tonguing really works in some places to bring out the feel of a tune, and I'm not convinced there's a good alternative for the same effect.

[Edited last paragraph, where I originaly made a mistake saying I did not tongue in those tunes.]

[Gordon]

At the risk of sounding obnoxious (but, hey! that never stopped me before!), there is so much misinformation being bandied about on this particular topic, and during this thread in particular, that I had to jump in and at least say, well, at least something.

There is little or no tonguing in ITM, and when it's employed by a small few innovative players it is only to accentuate an ornament (double tonguing on a triplet, for eg), or some such point of interest. This is very, very different than using tonguing for general articulations as is the life-blood of classical and/or baroque playing. If you are using tonguing to articulate in ITM, you're not learning how to play ITM in any single regional style correctly. So what, you might say? Well, most of us that like ITM have favorite players we want to play a bit like, right? But, almost without exception, you won't sound like any of these players you listen to because (among a few other things) you are trying to use tonguing for articulatation, and almost without exception, they don't.

Articulation between notes in ITM is done in several ways, none of which involves tonguing. Some regional styles rely on one or two techniques more than others, some are more legato than others. But, in general, finger cuts and taps and glottals are used to separate notes, break up triplets, and create pulses. Silences are used for breath and phrasings. Theory has it that these styles are all or partly the result of imitating pipes with bellows (no tongues!), an another theory has it that it mimics Irish singing, which also glottals rhythmically. In any case, while a few individuals will use their tongues in a few spots now and then, not one regional style employs it as a manner in which to articulate throughout.

This all said, there are no folk-police to slap you in the head if you use your tongue. Sometimes it works (tonguing, not slapping), or it can be slipped in (no tongue-pun suggested here) unnoticed in lieu of a glottal. But it is not in anyone' best interest to try to rationalize the use of classical tonguing on a jig or otherwise if they are trying to play ITM correctly. ONCE you have mastered a regional style or two, or a combination platter therein, if you want to try a few additional classical/baroque/jazz techniques that might use your tongue to create your own unique spin on things, that's pretty much fine with everyone. But don't call it traditional playing, call it a personal innovation. For newbies, try to learn things in the purist way possible before you start bending rules. You don't learn to sing the blues by throwing in opera techniques, so why would you do the same to ITM?

Gordon

[peeplj]

Gordon,

Excellent points all around.

--James

[sturob]

Let me first agree with Gordon's post, since I am the other member of the GSREOP-society. (Explained below).

Second, though, I think James sounds better on the tongued version of the jigs, if mainly because he's got more of a sense of line. One of the things you've got to remember in ITM is LINE. Actually, in any music. Pulse is not the only thing that drives the music, it's also continuity. The glottally-stopped version is too choppy, in my opinion. However, near the end of the second rendition of the jig, during which I'm sure James was thinking, "I can't tongue very well," suddenly the music has a forward drive.

Articulation is a means of emphasis, not a way to get every single note out. Remember the pipes, particularly highland pipes. You don't grace every single note, but you use gracing to your advantage. Same thing with articulation, especially with the glottals and tonguing and what not. You don't have to do it so often! Do it if you need to, in order to make a musical point.

I guess.

Stuart

[The Sporting Pitchfork]

I really enjoyed Gordon's post, but I would like to add a few things, partly my own opinions, and partly just to be an irritating devil's advocate.

There is little or no tonguing in ITM, and when it's employed by a small few innovative players it is only to accentuate an ornament (double tonguing on a triplet, for eg), or some such point of interest.

This is by and large very true. I have heard stories though that some old players in Leitrim and Ulster used a great deal of tonguing, however I'm not sure if any of them were ever recorded. Apparently, some of these players also played in the third octave (another supposed Irish trad flute no-no) in imitation of fife bands, etc.

If you are using tonguing to articulate in ITM, you're not learning how to play ITM in any single regional style correctly.

Who does play in a single regional style correctly these days? Now there's a question that could really get the muck flying...Any talk of playing Irish music "correctly", however well intentioned, can become downright dangerous.

ONCE you have mastered a regional style or two, or a combination platter therein, if you want to try a few additional classical/baroque/jazz techniques that might use your tongue to create your own unique spin on things, that's pretty much fine with everyone.

Alright, all you out there that have "mastered a regional style or two, or a combination platter therein", raise yer hands! Where exactly do you draw the line on this?

But don't call it traditional playing, call it a personal innovation.

Here, here. But where would traditional playing be without personal innovation? If Junior Crehan had spent his whole life trying to sound just like the players he heard when he was young, he wouldn't have sounded like Junior Crehan. Ditto Matt Molloy or pretty much any great Irish trad. luminary. What these greats do or did does by and large dictate what gets considered "traditional." We're not having a big argument over whether it's ok to play crans on the flute because it's considered traditional now, even though it wasn't really done before Matt Molloy did it. Conversely, I'd be willing to bet money that had Matt Molloy thrown in a lot of triple tonguing on his first solo album a la Brian Finnegan, most of us would be doing it now and we wouldn't give it a second thought.

What you do with your tongue and your fingers is your business. Articulation at its deepest essence is all about enhancing and clarifying the rhythm of a tune. If you feel that the best way to do that in a certain part of a tune is by tonguing some of the notes, then go for it.

[peeplj]

Actually I tongue quite well. My tonguing skills once got me through a full faculty at NLU as a music major, playing the Poulenc Sonata.

I just don't find that tonguing works well in Irish tunes for me.

Note that I didn't make any point about rather or not it's traditional, or rather or not they play it that way in the southern part of County Mayo. Not that these may not be important considerations, but, realisticly, I cannot address those issues from southern Arkansas.

If you want to learn a regional style correctly, go live in Ireland in the region you want to learn. I really think that's your only hope.

I think all this talk of regional style really borders on arrogance, at least from all but a few. And I'll never be one of the few, so I don't worry about it.

That said, I am starting to develop my own style, and I'm told by folks who just might know what they are talking about that it resembles this style or that. But that's not because I'm trying to carbon copy this or that style or this or that player; rather, it's because at the point I'm at now it's what the tune seems to call for. We'll see what happens when I get further down the road, but for now, it works for me.

I really don't think trying to carbon any player's style is a good idea in trad music, or in classical or jazz either, for that matter. I think listening is vital and good, but I think in trying to produce a mirror image of someone's playing you do them and yourself a great disservice.

--James

[Gordon]

[quote="The Sporting Pitchfork"]I really enjoyed Gordon's post, but I would like to add a few things, partly my own opinions, and partly just to be an irritating devil's advocate.
This is by and large very true. I have heard stories though that some old players in Leitrim and Ulster used a great deal of tonguing, however I'm not sure if any of them were ever recorded. Apparently, some of these players also played in the third octave (another supposed Irish trad flute no-no) in imitation of fife bands, etc.[quote]

Well, this may be, but since it can't be shown or proven, it clearly was/is an anomoly, since no tradition remains in place emulating them. My guess is that many players off and on did use tonguing techniques off and on, following some trained flute/fife tradition they encountered (not every musician then was a bumpkin), but that -- like all folk music -- the trained techniques fell by the wayside in favor of home-grown techniques which worked as well for the music and were probably easier on less (at the time) cutting-edge instruments available. And, against pipes and other folk instruments, sounded more appropriate.

Quote:
Alright, all you out there that have "mastered a regional style or two, or a combination platter therein", raise yer hands! Where exactly do you draw the line on this?
..unquote.

My point was precisely what you bring up; few have mastered any style, let alone a regional one. Since playing Irish music seems to be the goal for most folks discussing trad techniques here, it seems to me that UNTIL they have at least gotten their mind, soul and sound around a particular style or two, you shouldn't be trying to throw in every flute technique available from other musical sources as well. This, of course, is only if you (the generic you, BTW -- I'm not attacking any one in particular) care about playing traditionally; if not, do what you please. But -- as I've said -- don't call it traditional or bring this indifference onto the forum as rationalizations for alternative ways to approach traditional playing. As I said earlier, if you want to sing blues, you don't bring in opera techniques, even if you're a professional. Set them aside, learn to sing the blues from authentic sources, and then -- if it's your desire to innovate -- throw in a vocal trick or two to make it new and interesting (with taste and reverence, of course!).

Quote:
Here, here. But where would traditional playing be without personal innovation? If Junior Crehan had spent his whole life trying to sound just like the players he heard when he was young, he wouldn't have sounded like Junior Crehan. Ditto Matt Molloy or pretty much any great Irish trad. luminary. What these greats do or did does by and large dictate what gets considered "traditional." We're not having a big argument over whether it's ok to play crans on the flute because it's considered traditional now, even though it wasn't really done before Matt Molloy did it. Conversely, I'd be willing to bet money that had Matt Molloy thrown in a lot of triple tonguing on his first solo album a la Brian Finnegan, most of us would be doing it now and we wouldn't give it a second thought.

What you do with your tongue and your fingers is your business. Articulation at its deepest essence is all about enhancing and clarifying the rhythm of a tune. If you feel that the best way to do that in a certain part of a tune is by tonguing some of the notes, then go for it.

unquote


This is a very slippery slope to send newbies down, and I've heard this argument a million times. Folks like Junior Crehan and Matt Malloy lived and breathed the tradition since they were born, and in a session, they pretty much play as traditionally as the rest; don't confuse their personal innovations (mostly borrowed from pipes and other trad instruments, BTW, and not Quantz or Tromlitz flute tips) with pure drop standards. The fact is, Matt Malloy wouldn't have and didn't throw in triple tonguing on his first solo album. Why? Well, it was an Irish flute album, no? Tasteful innovation has to have a base to work from; it isn't the point of things in and of itself.

Ultimately, you are probably right -- if you are as talented and music-worldly as a Chris Norman, you can break all sorts of rules and get away with it. Me, a non-Irish flute player, played rock and roll most of my life, then silver flute, and learning ITM mostly from Jack Coen in my thirties. I'm a decent player, but if I can even humbly approach the real essence of Irish music when I play, I'm awfully happy with myself. Would I break tradition? Sure -- I don't owe it anything, really, and when I play, I ultimately play for myself or my paying (or non-paying) audience. But when I discuss on this forum how to play Irish music, I don't start discussing OTHER stuff a person can do on a flute that's simply not Irish. It's misleading and, all said, just wrong. Why not just extole the virtues of the Boehm flute, the third octave, the pure tone and vibrato? All good, in their place, no? Slippery slope, my friend...

Gordon