How much benefit from whistling?

chas · Post by **chas** » Fri Nov 14, 2003 9:04 am

I still have frequent days when I either can't get a decent sound out of the flute or am just dissatisfied and frustrated with how slow my progress is. On those days, I usually play whistle. I think that the whistle definitely helps with things like learning and understanding the music, phrasing, and intangibles.

But it occurred to me last night (a very good flute night) that the hand mechanics are so different, I wonder if things like developing crisper cuts and rolls on the whistle benefit flute playing at all. I especially noticed that my taps (which are pretty good on the whistle) suck so bad on the flute that I'm looking for new hand positions. This is especially true for the ring (third) fingers on both hands.

So what do y'all think -- how much does improving on the whistle help one's flute playing?

JessieK · Post by **JessieK** » Fri Nov 14, 2003 9:07 am

I think playing the whistle does improve flute playing. Sometimes I don't touch the flute for a few weeks, but I play whistle, and then when I return to the flute, I play better than before I stopped. It's true that the finger spacing and balance and all that are totally different on the whistle and flute, but it helps with the things you mentioned and with breath control.

spittle · Post by **spittle** » Fri Nov 14, 2003 9:17 am

...and you're still playing music (hopefully Irish) regardless! That's never a bad thing

I spend probably 85% of my practice time on the flute (maybe 4-6 hrs weekly), so switching to my little D whistle is quite a challenge from my D flute (Bamboo Olwell), which must have the furthest finger spread of any flute!

I know those days well though, Chas (when you're not sounding that great). It doesn't take long though, for the whistle's octave-challenges and lack of intonation (compared to the flute) to make me pick up the flute again, even if I'm not sounding great

Regards,
- Ryan

Gordon · Post by **Gordon** » Fri Nov 14, 2003 9:38 am

I think they're very diffent things, whistles and flutes, and the whistle does nothing whatsoever for your embouchure, which is the most important part of flute playing. If you enjoy playing the whistle, there's no harm in playing it in equal parts to working on the flute, and, of course the fingerings correspond. But if you lean on the whistle to learn flute, you're really shortchanging your flute playing.
Gordon

Blackbeer · Post by **Blackbeer** » Fri Nov 14, 2003 9:51 am

This is what I`ve found as far as whistle playing. Note I am a total beginner on the flute having only played the darn thing for about 10 months. I used to play the whistle to get a song down finger wise for the flute. Now I play it because I love the whistle. What I have been doing with the flute is just sitting down and letting the flute teach me what it can do. I don`t play tunes as much as just let my fingers go and mess with my lips and breath and just totaly have fun with it. I do play a few tunes during my play time but mostly just mess around. I need to up my lung capacity for one thing which I work on at the same time. As for the days where nothing works, well I have a lot of flutes so I just find one that is not being so stubern. I think it is important to get to the point where the flute is just natural in your hands. You have to get to the point where your not thinking about your fingers or how your holding the thing or blowing the thing. There is nothing instantly gratifying as far as flute playing goes. One must realize that it is a life long comitmant. Remember most of the players we love and respect have been playing almost sence birth.
Be patient. Don`t be hard on yourself. Stop trying to learn tunes and start listening to the flute. I find, also, when I messing around that tunes that are in my head start poping out of the flute. Hang in there and just have fun with it for a few months and see what happens.

Tom

PS by the way a firm emboucher takes a long time to develope. But when it starts getting there its look out kids!!!

bradhurley · Post by **bradhurley** » Fri Nov 14, 2003 11:48 am

Playing the whistle is good finger practice for playing flute. Playing the pipes is even better (even though the fingerings are different). But a few caveats to keep in mind for whistle players coming to flute:

1. The biggest mistake that most whistle players make with the flute is in getting the second octave. With the whistle, you get the second octave by blowing harder. With the flute, you tighten your embouchure. You should aim to make the second octave no louder than the first, and you should even be able to play the second octave more quietly than the first. Not that you necessarily want to play the second octave more quietly (although some of the old East Galway flute players did), but you should be able to.

Actually, I use the "tightening the embouchure" technique on the whistle as well, allowing me to play the second octave fairly quietly and with a more focused tone -- try it out. I just tighten my lips around the fipple. It works better on some whistles than other. Works beautifully on a Sindt.

2. Phrasing: because a beginning flute player uses more air on a flute than a whistle, you'll have to rethink your phrasing as you translate tunes from whistle to flute. As you get more experienced, you'll find that playing the flute doesn't take much more air than playing whistle and you can play longer phrases, but you'll need to adjust in the beginning.

3. Not everyone has this problem, but I find that it's really hard to play flute immediately after playing whistle. Playing whistle seems to soften my embouchure muscles and I have a hard time getting a focused tone on the flute. Usually I find it's better to start off a session on flute and then switch to whistle when you want to change or get tired.

4. Articulation (separating notes). In whistle, this is usually done by tonguing; in flute it's usually done by glottal stops. There are exceptions on both sides: Larry Nugent articulates his whistle playing with glottal stops, and there are quite a few Irish flute players who articulate by tonguing. And some people use very little articulation at all. But in general the techniques of separating notes on the whiste and flute are different so you have to adjust.

jim stone · Post by **jim stone** » Fri Nov 14, 2003 12:26 pm

Good advice.
i
I find that the flute takes less air than
some of the whistles I play, especially
the Copeland low D.

Glottal stops on the high whistle tend to
overblow, but maybe that's cause I'm
not playing whistles so much.

One difficulty, though, is that I learned to balance
the whistle by keeping down the third finger
of my right hand instead of my pinky. This
leads to complications on the flute--the pinky
works better. So it's a bit confusing.

I continue to think that arpeggios and broken
chords and scales and embouchure exercises
are a good way to move forward more quickly
on the flute--as in the Bill Hart book.
I think that helps more than playing whistle.
I confess though that many days
I just play tunes. Best

johnkerr · Post by **johnkerr** » Fri Nov 14, 2003 12:43 pm

What Brad said. If your goal is to become a better flute player, then you should persevere through playing flute on those days when the flute just doesn't seem to work for you, rather than switching over to whistle and leaving the flute for another day. If you keep at the flute even on the days when it seems like you're fighting the instrument rather than playing it, eventually those days will become fewer and further between. Flute and whistle are really two totally different instruments that just happen to share the same fingerings. To cite one big difference, flute is a very demanding instrument physically, while whistle isn't at all. Factors as disparate as a cold, the spiciness of your dinner, or the strange angle you have to wedge yourself in between folks at the session can drastically affect your abilty to play well on the flute. But if you persevere when the flute playing is rough, gradually you'll build yourself up and those things will affect you less and less.

But if your goal is just to play whatever instrument happens to work best for you on any given day, then by all means do that. But be prepared five or ten years down the line to still be in that boat. Rather than playing one instrument well, you'll probably be playing two instruments passably, or maybe one instrument passably (whistle) and one instrument mediocre-ly (flute). But if that's what you want, then go for it...

JessieK · Post by **JessieK** » Fri Nov 14, 2003 12:52 pm

Plenty of quite good players of traditional Irish music play several instruments passably, and usually one quite well.

Being pregnant, the nausea has interfered with all things woodwind for me, and some days I just don't have the energy to hold up the flute. I think playing the whistle helps more than it hinders. Yes, the whistle and the flute are different, but they are more similar than, say, a flute and a fiddle.

johnkerr · Post by **johnkerr** » Fri Nov 14, 2003 1:12 pm

JessieK wrote:Plenty of quite good players of traditional Irish music play several instruments passably, and usually one quite well.

True, but I bet they didn't get that way by taking the path of least resistance, i.e. if they had a bad day on one of the instruments early on in their careers they probably used that as an opportunity to work on that instrument and improve rather than to switch off to another instrument and hope for a better day. That's my point.

Of course, there are those lucky (or talented) folks who never seem to hit a snag anywhere, but just take like a natural to any instrument they pick up. Fair play to them for that, but that's not who us work-a-day hacks ought to be taking as role models for how to learn to play better.

JessieK · Post by **JessieK** » Fri Nov 14, 2003 1:22 pm

Yeah, I see your point. However, most of us have careers other than flute-playing. For us, I think to play what is fun is a good thing. If I play well, I feel inspired to keep playing. If I play poorly, I put it away for another time. I tried for three months to play the fiddle and realized I should stick to whistles and flutes, so I sold the fiddle. But seriously, for hobbyists who love the music and the instruments and have no desire to become professional, if it's not fun and rewarding, what's the point?

Gordon · Post by **Gordon** » Fri Nov 14, 2003 1:36 pm

JessieK wrote:Plenty of quite good players of traditional Irish music play several instruments passably, and usually one quite well.

Being pregnant, the nausea has interfered with all things woodwind for me, and some days I just don't have the energy to hold up the flute. I think playing the whistle helps more than it hinders. Yes, the whistle and the flute are different, but they are more similar than, say, a flute and a fiddle.

Most of the players you are thinking of started playing whistle as children -- young children -- and they continued on to flute, which became their main instrument (and, in many cases, one of several other instruments), all of which they gave their full attention when they worked at it. In order to learn any instrument really well, you have to work at it, specifically, very hard. I play several instruments; my years of guitar playing helps me fake mandolin playing, but I'm not a great mandolin player.
The techniques involved in really good whistle playing is very different from really good flute playing, mostly, but not always, limited to the embouchure. Even switching from a Boehm to an Irish flute, to a Baroque flute, can bring about changes that mess with your head and undo some of your learning. This doesn't mean that playing any of these hurts your playing the other, but -- unless you give them all equal, and significant, time -- you will be stronger on one than the other, or mediocre at all of them. The whistle's similarity to the flute is largely superficial, but I do think a good flute player is a better whistler, without much work, than a good whistler makes a good flute player, without much work.
Pregnancy problems, I can't say much about, 'cept congrats, but if a player is having any wind problems and cannot regularly work on their flutes, that's simply a problem, and yes, I suppose a whistle will help them keep their fingers in some semblance of shape for when they can get back to real practice on a flute.
Gordon

JessieK · Post by **JessieK** » Fri Nov 14, 2003 1:48 pm

I say enjoy what you're doing and don't feel guilty for liking your sound more on one instrument than another at any given time.

Blackbeer · Post by **Blackbeer** » Fri Nov 14, 2003 5:17 pm

Jeez Gordon you are always so sober minded. (I mean that in a good way I always learn something from your posts) I don`t know what a good practice session is. I know sometimes I will say to myself "ok today we work on a new tune" and I crank up the slow downer and find a tune I like and then pick up the flute and start piddeling around just to warm it up and about 3 hours later I remember I was going to work on a song. The worst flute I have to pick up is the old antique 8 key. It just blows me away. So easy to play, so many ways to play it and keys to mess around with all for 76 bucks. God I still can`t believe it. The Lehart is why I have to get my lung capacity up. Loud seems to mean more air, though I could be wrong. I try to work on the secound octive as far as volume and clerity (what a b^&%h that is) and now, thanks to mister Healey, I for sure know what I have to do as far as mbowsher goes. I pretty well guessed that`s what I needed to do but boy I`m having a hard time with it. Anyway I play at least 3 hours a day, every day and I am having a ball. I know I will have to knuckel down soon and get with it but I am learning so much about these two flutes and my wooden Dixon that I just can`t stop what I`m doing right now. I do want to l earn some new tunes cause I`m pretty well sick of the ones I know and can play with out thinking about them but to me right now it seems more important to learn about tone and color and such. Endless scales and octive jumps and that sort of thing. Good for the fingers lips and lungs. But it would be nice to know what a "good practice session " should be.

Tom

PS: Jeez Jim I don`t know who tought you how to spell.

Gordon · Post by **Gordon** » Fri Nov 14, 2003 7:06 pm

Well, Tom, 3 hours a day, you're probably doing just fine. I don't know, personally, if you are being efficient with your 3 hours or not, but if you're enjoying yourself and learning the instrument at the same time, you're doing it right. But, learn some new tunes, already, will you? You're driving the neighbors crazy!
My only real point was that you don't practice one instrument to learn another, and while whistles are perfectly viable instruments when played well, they're not "starter" flutes. I will say that the more instruments you are accomplished with, the easier it is to pick up another, like a new language if you know more than one already, but actual techniques or muscle memory takes work on a specific instrument. So, if you play around on your flute for hours a day, you'll be a good flute player, now or eventually. If you don't, you won't.
Sobering, huh?
Gordon