Cocus and timber allergies: a taxonomic approach

sturob · Post by **sturob** » Tue Dec 30, 2003 6:10 pm

This is text from a message I buried in another thread, but I think it's got some interesting information in it so I thought I'd put it in its own thread. I apologize for the double-posting, but gosh darn it, this was a bunch of work.

OK, so I decided to do my own little wee investigation into our beloved Brya ebenus, as botanists know cocus. Hang on to your hats, folks. The genus Brya is, as folks have mentioned before . . . a legume. So's rosewood. Bold indicates a level which becomes interesting.

Here's the taxonomy of cocus:
KINGDOM Plantae -- plants
SUBKINGDOM Tracheobionta -- vascular plants
SUPERDIVISION Spermatophyta -- seed plants
DIVISION Magnoliophyta -- flowering plants
CLASS Magnoliopsida -- dicotyledons (flower structure)
SUBCLASS Rosidae
ORDER Fabales
FAMILY Fabaceae -- Pea family
GENUS Brya
SPECIES ebenus

Now HERE's the taxonomy of everyday PEANUTS!
KINGDOM Plantae -- plants
SUBKINGDOM Tracheobionta -- vascular plants
SUPERDIVISION Spermatophyta -- seed plants
DIVISION Magnoliophyta -- flowering plants
CLASS Magnoliopsida -- dicotyledons (flower structure)
SUBCLASS Rosidae
ORDER Fabales
FAMILY Fabaceae -- Pea family
GENUS Arachis
SPECIES hypogaea

And, oh gosh, AFRICAN BLACKWOOD!
KINGDOM Plantae -- plants
SUBKINGDOM Tracheobionta -- vascular plants
SUPERDIVISION Spermatophyta -- seed plants
DIVISION Magnoliophyta -- flowering plants
CLASS Magnoliopsida -- dicotyledons (flower structure)
SUBCLASS Rosidae
ORDER Fabales
FAMILY Fabaceae -- Pea family
GENUS Dalbergia
SPECIES melanoxylon

Wow. Who knew how closely related are blackwood, rosewoods (like cocobolo, which is Dalbergia retusa), cocus, and PEANUTS of all things. Family relationships are quite close, genetically speaking; it's no wonder people are allergic to cocus, cocobolo, blackwood . . . and peanuts. Hmm. . . For clarity, the classifications above are bold only where the differences begin.

For the sake of discussion, here's the taxonomy of European boxwood, Buxus sempervirens.

KINGDOM Plantae -- plants
SUBKINGDOM Tracheobionta -- vascular plants
SUPERDIVISION Spermatophyta -- seed plants
DIVISION Magnoliophyta -- flowering plants
CLASS Magnoliopsida -- dicotyledons (flower structure)
SUBCLASS Rosidae
ORDER Euphorbiales
FAMILY Buxaceae -- Boxwood family
GENUS Buxus
SPECIES sempervirens

The order Euphorbiales contains only three families, one of which is Buxaceae, the boxwoods, and another of which is Simmondsiaceae, the jojoba family. Skin lotion. So, mebbe boxwood flutes are actually good for the complexion.

Seriously, though, boxwoods are pretty far from rosewoods/peanuts.

It's interesting, but perusing the Fabaceae family and you come up with all kinds of allergenic stuff. Clover, alfalfa, other weeds.

Again, for the sake of interest, and I hope I'm not the only one interested . . . here's ebony, Diospyros ebenum, favorite timber of many uilleann pipemakers.

KINGDOM Plantae -- plants
SUBKINGDOM Tracheobionta -- vascular plants
SUPERDIVISION Spermatophyta -- seed plants
DIVISION Magnoliophyta -- flowering plants
CLASS Magnoliopsida -- dicotyledons (flower structure)
SUBCLASS Dilleniidae
ORDER Ebenales
FAMILY Ebenaceae -- Ebony family
GENUS Diospyros
SPECIES ebenum

Ebony takes us even takes the genetic relation one step further away . . . it differs in the subclass level even from boxwood.

Now, I realize that this doesn't do a lot to help you figure out what to do about ordering a flute out of cocus or blackwood. It does, I think, shed some scientific light on why this kind of thing might be occurring . . . these timbers, rosewoods-blackwoods-cocus, are closely related to each other, and as close to peanuts (which are a well-recognized and common allergen). I think it means that people with allergies, particularly peanut allergies, should consider flutes in boxwood or ebony. Or lip-plates. But this is a real phenomenon which has rained on the parades of many flute buyers. Just because you don't have an allergy now, does that mean you won't get one? Hard to say, too; if you've got a lot of environmental allergens, I think chances are better that you COULD develop an allergy to cocus/blackwood/cocobolo. This phylogeny/taxonomic discussion ALSO doesn't discuss how "accessible" the allergens are to the body; it does seem that cocus is many times more allergenic than blackwood, but I can't explain why.

To give you an idea of the proximity of these relationships . . . we're primates, right? We differ from chimpanzees at the genus level. So, cocus::blackwood as chimps::me. Peanuts::blackwood as chimps::me.

Boxwood differs at the order level . . . so, that'd be like, armadillos, which are in the order Pholidota. So, cocus::boxwood as armadillos::me.

And how's this for funky. Ebony differs at the subclass level. That's like, well . . . the platypus, which is in the subclass Prototheria. So, ebony::blackwood as platypus::me. Likewise, ebony::boxwood as platypus::me.

If you're curious about blackwood::cocobolo, they're as close as jackals::dogs.

This has been an incredibly fun message to construct, and I hope it engenders some discussion. I think I'll cross-post it in its own thread with some kind of "Cocus Allergies and You" title.

Anyway, I hope y'all enjoy it.

Stuart

Post by **Nanohedron** » Tue Dec 30, 2003 6:17 pm

Blackwood allergy, so I consider cocus (as well as rosewood) a given. I can shovel down the peanuts and other comestible legumes like there's no tomorrow, though. I wonder why that would be...

BTW, Sturob, great info, thanks! Very interesting reading, and I liked your comparisons at the mammalian level.

sturob · Post by **sturob** » Tue Dec 30, 2003 6:25 pm

Contact and ingestion are different things, I suppose. Also, peanuts are from the roots, and cocus and blackwood are the timber, so it could very well be that the offending allergens are expressed in the wood and not the tissue of the roots. But, there could be cross-reactivity. So, caution!

Glad you liked it!

Stuart

andrew · Post by **andrew** » Tue Dec 30, 2003 6:48 pm

What a splendid survey, Sturob .
You remind me that allergies are rather centered on the nasal sinuses which I seem to remember are where immunoglobulin E is produced which I think responds to antigens .I wonder if flutewoods when wet are breathed into the nasal pharynx in trace amounts and rattle the IG E .
( from an IG D sufferer ).

BillG · Post by **BillG** » Tue Dec 30, 2003 7:59 pm

My first contact with Rosewood was a fife. It gave me a buzzing and tingling sensation on my lips for the first four or five times I played it but not thereafter. Nothing else on the list had any effect. Thanx for the great information.

BillG

IDAwHOa · Post by **IDAwHOa** » Tue Dec 30, 2003 10:00 pm

I am curious about Mopane as compared to the timbers you have mentioned. That seems to be a fairly popular wood as well. At least it is in the flutes we investigated prior to getting ours from Casey.

pandscarr · Post by **pandscarr** » Wed Dec 31, 2003 6:21 am

The mind is indeed a powerful thing - after reading the many discussions about cocus wood sensitivies, I spent the first two weeks after buying an old cocus wood R&R in a complete panic. I was convinced that my fingers and lips were tingling, and sure at one point that my lips were much bigger than normal.

Then, after about 2 weeks, I just got so involved in enjoying the flute, that I forgot all about the sensitivity - and a month later am showing no sensitivity at all, thankfully.

bradhurley · Post by **bradhurley** » Wed Dec 31, 2003 7:50 am

Hmmm, interesting hypothesis, but:

My friend whose face puffed up and had trouble breathing after playing her recently oiled cocus flute can eat peanuts with impunity. I react to cocus but have no food allergies whatsoever.

I've breathed in lots of blackwood dust in my time (I played with Chris Abell in his flute shop every Tuesday night for 10 years) and it never bothered me; I don't know what would have happened if he'd been making cocus whistles and flutes, though.

I suspect that cocus contains an oil with chemical properties similar to those of poison ivy, only milder. It would be interesting to learn whether the leaves of the cocus tree also have this oil, and whether this was something that evolved in response to herbivores that were munching the leaves (or termites that were munching the wood). Or maybe it evolved in response to pressure from timber-cutters who were seeking cocus wood for flute players.

I'd also add that there are huge differences at the genus level...just because certain plants are in the same family doesn't necessarily mean they share many chemical properties. Tomatoes and potatoes are closely related, and they're in the nightshade family. Deadly nightshade is, of course, deadly, but tomatoes and potatoes are eaten every day. Basil is in the mint family (just look at the square stems, all mints have square stems), but it certainly doesn't taste like mint.

Michel · Post by **Michel** » Wed Dec 31, 2003 7:53 am

The mind is indeed a powerful thing - after reading the many discussions about cocus wood sensitivies, I spent the first two weeks after buying an old cocus wood R&R in a complete panic. I was convinced that my fingers and lips were tingling, and sure at one point that my lips were much bigger than normal.

Then, after about 2 weeks, I just got so involved in enjoying the flute, that I forgot all about the sensitivity - and a month later am showing no sensitivity at all, thankfully.

AHA!!! I had the same experience!!! we're paranoics as Woody Allen

happy new year

michel

carrie · Post by **carrie** » Wed Dec 31, 2003 8:00 am

Yikes, I'm worried now. I have a keyed cocus flute on order but I've never tried playing anything made of cocus. I am not allergic to anything, so I thought I'd be okay. I guess it's really important I try one first?

Thanks for this interesting info, Stuart.

Carol

andrew · Post by **andrew** » Wed Dec 31, 2003 8:04 am

I hope you don't eat green potatoes, Mr Bradhurley .Nearly as bad as deadly nightshade !

bradhurley · Post by **bradhurley** » Wed Dec 31, 2003 8:06 am

Carol, be sure to try one that's been recently oiled. As I explained in another thread here, oiling the wood seems to bring out cocus's irritating properties. I was talking with a guy recently who played an antique cocus flute for a few weeks with no problem, but then he oiled it and had a strong reaction. I also have a friend who bought a cocus flute and had no reaction until she oiled it. The only times I've reacted to cocus flutes myself were when they had been recently oiled.

I suppose one solution would be to never oil your cocus flute, at least not the headjoint. Another solution would be to have a blackwood headjoint on a cocus body. You can also have a lip-plate added.

sturob · Post by **sturob** » Wed Dec 31, 2003 12:14 pm

bradhurley wrote:I'd also add that there are huge differences at the genus level...just because certain plants are in the same family doesn't necessarily mean they share many chemical properties. Tomatoes and potatoes are closely related, and they're in the nightshade family. Deadly nightshade is, of course, deadly, but tomatoes and potatoes are eaten every day. Basil is in the mint family (just look at the square stems, all mints have square stems), but it certainly doesn't taste like mint.

Well, allow me to defend myself.

First, don't discount your tastebuds, and the degree to which they can make very minor distinctions. Basil and mint, I would argue, are quite similar. Although I don't know what molecules make basil taste like basil, and mint like mint, I'd be willing to bet that they're quite similar chemically. Despite the fact that they are quite distinct to the tongue, your immune system might or might not see them as so different.

Also, as to the differences at the genus level, I would argue that it does imply some chemical similarities. Probably a lot. The nightshade/potato/tomato is a good one, but a confusing one. There is a plant in the genus Solanum which is called "deadly nightshade," but the classical deadly nightshade is Atropa belladonna, same family but different genus. The part of the nightshade which is most deadly is the leafy part; potatoes are the tubers, tomatoes are the fruit; nightshade berries contain a lot less of the active compounds (atropine/scopolamine). Different parts of the plants aren't necessarily all that similar, and I don't know what would happen to you if you were to eat tomato or potato greens. So, that does kind of blow the connection between peanuts and cocus/blackwood, but not necessarily. These are all theories which would need to be tested.

And again, molecules which induce allergies are not necessarily poisons; the whole idea is different (and I know you know that). Our immune systems are not amazingly specific in the way that they recognize compounds. At the genus level, there is an immense amount of similar genetic data, implying at least the presence of similar (if not identical) proteins in different species of the same genus. One of the reasons our immune system works is that it is not perfect at identifying foreign material. If it were, you'd horribly sick any time a virus mutated, or a bacterium acquired some new genetic material. In people who are allergic to penicillins, for example, those patients exhibit an allergic response to a part of the molecule comprised of less than 20 atoms. That's why a truly penicillin-allergic patient can't get any "-cillin" drugs, because they all have that little part, the beta-lactam ring.

Something else which makes this all just interesting conjecture is that we have no idea what part of the cocus, for example, people are allergic to. Or of the blackwood. . .

More later!

Stuart

carrie · Post by **carrie** » Wed Dec 31, 2003 12:36 pm

bradhurley wrote:Carol, be sure to try one that's been recently oiled. As I explained in another thread here, oiling the wood seems to bring out cocus's irritating properties.

Yes, I read that, and thanks. How long an exposure do you think would be adequate to determine if I'm gonna have a reaction or not? Thanks.

Carol

Post by **Nanohedron** » Wed Dec 31, 2003 12:47 pm

Michel wrote:
The mind is indeed a powerful thing - after reading the many discussions about cocus wood sensitivies, I spent the first two weeks after buying an old cocus wood R&R in a complete panic. I was convinced that my fingers and lips were tingling, and sure at one point that my lips were much bigger than normal.

Then, after about 2 weeks, I just got so involved in enjoying the flute, that I forgot all about the sensitivity - and a month later am showing no sensitivity at all, thankfully.
AHA!!! I had the same experience!!! we're paranoics as Woody Allen
happy new year
michel

I only wish I were as paranoid.

BTW, if I recall correctly, the foliage of all members of the nightshade family are toxic to some degree, the active priciple of which (solanine) is activated when the eater is exposed to sunlight. That's the basic idea, anyway. Cooking deactivates the toxin. Potato skins with green areas have solanine present there, but cooking renders it safe to eat. I imagine that tomato greens would taste just as nasty after cooking as before, though. I have no information as to what the effects of solanine poisoning are, nor have I had the urge for any empirical research in that wise.

Peel those potatoes if you're gonna eat 'em raw!

Chiff and Fipple Forums

Cocus and timber allergies: a taxonomic approach

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Cocus and timber allergies: a taxonomic approach