Flute Tuning and Intonation

[prunci]

My Hamilton keyless flute (now about a year old) and other Pratten-style flutes I've played seem to have a couple of notes that require extra attention (e.g., rolling in/out, lipping up/down) to play in tune. In particular, the low F# on mine tends to be a bit flat and the A a C# tend to be a bit sharp for me. On the bottom in general (D,E, F#), I find myself having to really blow pretty hard to play in tune.

Another observation I've made recently is that the farther out the tuning slide is, the more in tune the lower register A and C# are with the rest of the intrument. This makes sense, I've discovered after reading a bit about flute tuning. The closer a finger hole is to the embouchure hole, the more responsive it will be to changes in the embouchure-finger hole distance. So pulling out the tuning slide pulls those notes into line with the rest of the notes, so to speak.

So, I'm wondering if I'm just struggling with some of the inherent traits of Hammy's flutes, Pratten flutes, or all wooden flutes. Assuming that all flute designs incorporate a series of compromises, it would be useful to have a sense of these personality traits in choosing flute models and makers.

On the other hand, I'm wondering if these instruments are supposed to be equally-tempered or are they to some extent meant to be tuned in just-intonation?

I also have to add that this is no criticism of Hammy or his craftsmanship. I'm just trying better to understand my instrument and my own limitations as a player. The flute is beautiful and Hammy is a pleasure to deal with.

Thanks,

Paul

[peeplj]

None of my flutes are completely in-tune from the perspective of the equally-tempered digital tuner.

The "Pratten" type flutes such as my Hamilton and Seery are very close, much closer than my antique 8-key, for instance, where F-sharp, C-sharp, and D are very flat (like on the order of 30+ cents flat). The Hamilton, when off, is usually just a few cents off.

Even on the Boehm system flute there are tuning compromises. It's just the nature of the instrument.

Solution: don't bring a ditigal tuner to a session, and you'll be perfectly happy.

--James

[BMFW]

On the bottom in general (D,E, F#), I find myself having to really blow pretty hard to play in tune.

I'm always wary when I hear about the concept of "blowing hard" to bring up a flat low D. My experience tells me that "blowing correctly" would be a better description. Now this is definately not meant to sound like "hey, if you're D is flat you're not blowing right", but the technique is crucial. My flute (Prowse) and a few Rudalls I've tried, actually benefit from easing off on the low D but really concentrating on the embouchure and the airstream. It took me a good 6 months to get the D bang in tune on the Prowse, but bang in tune it is!

As for modern flutes, all the Hammy's I've tried are a dream on the low end, spot-on in tune and very powerfull. Try every conceivable shape of embouchure, pressure of blowing etc, and you will find the sweetspot where you flute is in tune all the way. (Obviously I have no knowledge of your standard of playing. If all of the above sounds hideously patronising then I apologise - that is not my intention at all)

Solution: don't bring a ditigal tuner to a session, and you'll be perfectly happy.

--James

Here, Here,.....tuners and sheet music, banish them!
Oh, and bodhran players,
And Japanese tourists who run into the pub, take your photo and run out again,
And bazouki players - I mean what kind of a name is that for an instrument.
And.......................sorry, went off on a bit of a tangent there.

Cheers

Graham

PS - Someone on another thread was reading my mind. Check out the "A-Ha Moments" thread for a description of "breathing" instead of "blowing".
http://chiffboard.mati.ca/viewtopic.php?t=17097

[meemtp]

Paul,

Are you using a tuner to check your intonation or your ear? Tuners are notoriously difficult to use with flutes because the notes blown tend to waver in pitch. It's not enough for us to notice, but sensitive digital devices will. I realized this when I was spot-on with the built in pitchpipe o a tuner, but the indicator needle was all over the place. Ears are far more trustworthy sometimes.

Corin

[prunci]

Corin:

I'm relying mainly on my ear and, to a lesser extent, on my portable tape recorder. I'll occasionally record myself as a diagnostic exercise. I generally do this on days whn my spirits are high enough to take the bludgeoning. I've already discovered that a digital tuner is of limitied use here. I don't consult it much.

I appreciate the fact that there's a difference between blowing hard and blowing correctly. Some days I blow harder, some days more correctly. What I'm after (like all of us, I suppose) is consistency in my ability to get a good sound across the full range. Again, I am not faulting the instrument here! I think hardware is a lot less important than technique anyway.

Paul

[meemtp]

If you switched from a different style to the Pratten, that could explain things. The pratten style definitely is more demanding to blow. I played a R&R derived flute for 4 years or so, then switched to a Pratten style. It was almost like starting all over again. I had to change my position, embouchure etc. It's funny, because historically intonation of Prattens has had an edge over Rudalls in many cases (the origionals anyway) But I had some intonation trouble too. Good luck at any rate. It will sneak up on you and before you know it you'll be right-on across the scale.

Corin

[bradhurley]

I agree about blowing correctly versus blowing hard.

The F# being flat is normal, same for the A being sharp. On many simple-system conical bore flutes the C# is actually a bit flat rather than sharp, but I've seen some flutes with sharp C-sharps as well.

When you've got a good clear, focused tone, you'll find that it takes very little effort to bring these notes closer to being in tune with other instruments. Just a little lipping up or down should do it -- I raise or drop my chin a little to shift the blowing angle; it's subtle. Accordions are pretty unforgiving when it comes to tuning (at least the dry-tuned ones favored by most C#-D players)...if you can play along with an accordion and not sound too out of tune, you've got it.

Hammy's flutes are based on a Pratten style flute and you shouldn't have any trouble getting a strong bottom D. On a Rudall-style flute you'll have to work at it a bit more -- tighten your embouchure and blow a little more over the hole than in it. Once you get the technique down, the bottom D of a Rudall style flute is like nothing else, very free and open.

[prunci]

My Hamilton flute is my first hardwood, conical flute. I began playing on an Olwell bamboo D that has a very different personality.

By all accounts, it sounds like my experience is similar to those of other Pratten players. Hammy's flute does have a solid bottom and powerful tone. I'm trying to learn how to take advantage of these aspects of it. Thanks for all your advice!

Paul

[Seanduine]

Paul,

There's no doubt that the low notes on the Hamilton are exceptional. Hammy's playing of the polkas on the recent An Gaoth Aduaidh are good examples of what his flutes are capable of. The low D's on the final polka are simply thunderous.

[feadog39]

Paul,
I would say definitely bust out the tuner and practice with it regularly. (I'll have to contradict Corin on this point, as i have never had trouble with a tuner in the way mentioned) It is really important to train you ear in addition to everything else, for if you have the pitch correctly in your head you will after a while automatically hone in on that pitch. Now, this is assuming of course there ain't serious intonation problems on your flute. A really flat low D often is a good sign that your stopper is out of place. I have a hammy too and have had this problem, which can be solved by experimentation. Warm up your flute/embouchre real good for 10-15 minutes, bust out the tuner and get the A in tune. Then experiment pushing stopper back and forth and see what happens to the low D. Lots of folks have various formulas for the stopper position, all of which i can't ever remember, but using your ear and experimenting seem to work too. Last resort: get another flute player to try your flute and see what they think. good luck...
Brendan

[feadog39]

another thing to keep in mind is that, at least on a hammy, getting a booming low D takes a lot less air than you might think. seems to be more a combo of steady airflow and embouchure position. imagine you are going to play the softest yet most intense and beautiful low D you have ever played. and boom, it rises out of the void like a pheonix. [ok, got a bit wild with the mataphors...]

[bradhurley]

Warm up your flute/embouchre real good for 10-15 minutes, bust out the tuner and get the A in tune. Then experiment pushing stopper back and forth and see what happens to the low D.

a couple of thoughts on this:

1. If you're trying to get your flute in tune with itself, don't start out by getting the A in tune with a tuner. The A is sharp on most flutes, and unless you're experienced enough to know how to blow it in tune, the rest of your notes will be off. If you're working with an electronic tuner, tune to the G instead of the A before checking your other notes against the tuner. The G is the anchor note on the flute, it's closest to the acoustically perfect position, and requires no special adjustments to get it into tune.

2. If you have a flat D on a Pratten-style flute, it may indeed be true that the stopper isn't placed correctly, and you can adjust it. But on a Rudall-style flute, the D will almost always be flat for a beginner or someone who's not used to that style of flute. No need to adjust the stopper; adjust your playing instead.

In 20 years or so of flute playing, I've had to adjust a stopper on my flutes perhaps twice. It's not something you're going to need to do regularly.

One problem with relying too much on tuners is that you end up "playing the tuner" instead of learning how to play your flute in tune. The tuner can help you identify which notes are out and what you need to do to get them closer to pitch, but I wouldn't spend a lot of time trying to get every note spot-on with the tuner. You should develop your ear so you can hear when a note is sharp or flat. It's an important skill, and the tuner can slow the process of improving your ear if you rely on it too heavily.

[feadog39]

good points, brad. G would be much better than A. and it is not a good habit to "ride the tuner." what i find is better is playing thru a phrase and stopping somplace, holding the note, and see where things are at. spot checking, i guess. my stopper seems to rove around a bit, especially in the winter when dryer. I once started to play and to my great surprise could not even get air into the flute: the stopper had dropped south of the embouchure hole! Perhaps that's why i've been keeping my tuner in arms reach lately...