Definition of Irish Flute?

[Nanohedron]

When asked, I just say that it's a "postclassical-derived pre-Boehm simple-system conical bore wooden diatonic-scaled flute with keys for the accidentals, popularly played in trad music".

They leave me alone after that.

[jim stone]

Hey, I like that!

[tin tin]

Worth considering, however, is that many modern wood flutes have been optimized for the lower two octaves and have been rescaled to use 'whistle-fingering' rather than the original 19th century fingerings. So a flute with these modifications, specifically optimized for Irish music, might well be referred to as an Irish flute.
Micah

[glauber]

Worth considering, however, is that many modern wood flutes have been optimized for the lower two octaves and have been rescaled to use 'whistle-fingering' rather than the original 19th century fingerings. So a flute with these modifications, specifically optimized for Irish music, might well be referred to as an Irish flute.
Micah

Yes, but this is kind of a myth. The fingerings for classical flute for the notes in the tonalities with one and two sharps are the same as the whistle fingerings. Most times this claim is made suposing that in the classical flute you're required to hold open the F-nat key when you play F#. Well, yes, if you have a key you can hold it open to improve the venting and the sound, but it's not mandatory (why would anyone make a flute with such clumsy fingering?). Check out for example:
http://www.oldflutes.com/charts/dressler/index.htm
The text at the bottom right of the fingering chart says:
For the low and middle F#, the F key may be open or closed.

Same for third octave: a well made "Irish" flute (e.g.: my Cotter) plays just fine in the third octave. The problem is many third octave fingerings require keys (even when it's just the D# key).

It's generally accepted that Irish flute music established itself on the wooden 8-key classical flute because those flutes were available cheaply at the time when Irish music was getting established on the flute (flute players were switching to the new Boehm system flutes and getting rid of the old sticks). After disparaging the conical wooden flute for decades, we finally realized that these flutes are actually very expressive and have a lot of qualities, so the wooden flute is having a renaissance today, and that's great. But if [insert your favourite old timer Irish player] had to wait 8 years for a Wilkes, i doubt Irish flute music would even exist!


g

[peeplj]

Just a note:

I've read before the thing about Hamilton flutes being optimized for the lower two octaves at the expense of the third.

Just thought I'd point out that my Hamilton has the easiest third octave of any simple system flute I own. It is nearly as easy as a Boehm-system flute, and it is well in tune, on the notes available on a keyless flute:

d (o x x | o o o)

e (x x o | x x o)

f# (x o x | x x x)

g (x o x | o o o)

a (o x x | x x o)

Also the Seery Pratten model is quite good in the third octave, using these same fingerings.

--James

[glauber]

I've read before the thing about Hamilton flutes being optimized for the lower two octaves at the expense of the third.

Just thought I'd point out that my Hamilton has the easiest third octave of any simple system flute I own. It is nearly as easy as a Boehm-system flute, and it is well in tune, on the notes available on a keyless flute

They all say that. Eamon Cotter says the same thing, and you should see Rod Cameron playing that thing on the third octave. I think it's a kind of blanket disclaimer: since they're not very interested on the third octave they won't spend time fine-tuning the flute there, but they don't necessarily do anything that would make the third octave suck.

According to Terry McGee, the better vented a flute is (i.e. big holes) the better it will be on the third octave and the more its fingerings there will approach the Boehm's.

Terry has a fingering chart for the real Pratten flute, in case someone wants to experiments with the third octave:
http://mcgee-flutes.com/PratFing.htm

[Gordon]

So if I say that I play the Irish flute, it generally conjures up the image of a keyless conical wooden flute.

Not for me. I see keys as well as keyless. While I suppose it's true that keyless flutes were developed mainly for playing Irish music, I think you could equally argue that keyless flutes were developed to provide a more affordable alternative to keyed ones. Yes you can play Irish music on a keyless flute, but having keys certainly makes life easier. I use the keys a lot, and most Irish players I know who have keyed flutes use the keys frequently.

To me, "Irish flute" is a vague term ....

I don't think most Irish players would call their flutes "Irish flutes" except when talking to someone who's not familiar with the music or the instrument. ".

Not to be argumentative, Brad, but, of course, you (and I) think Irish flutes include those with keys, and know that keys can be used for Irish music as well as other music. What I had said was that the label "Irish flute" - which is only a label - is used to simplify things almost exclusively for the non-initiated. An Irish fiddler (who is so labelled "Irish fiddler" to differentiate his style, not his instrument) will expect a conical flute from an Irish flute player, with or without keys because, he/she too understands this.
But, to the uninitiated, a keyless conical flute is the quintessential "Irish" or folk flute, as it does eliminate confusion caused by a keyed conical, used for lots of styles other than folk, and it was created almost exclusively as (as you say) an affordable flute for ITM.
'sall I'm saying...
Gordon

[johnkerr]

The only times I have ever referred to my flute as an "Irish flute" have been when I have been sitting in a session - and this only ever seems to happen when I'm playing with pipers or concertinas or other instruments that are way less mainstream, from a pop culture POV, than the flute - and some punter comes up and says to me "What's that instrument you're playing?" To which I always reply, "It's a flute." Then when - as they always do - they say "But it doesn't look like a flute...", I say "Well, it's an IRISH flute." That usually satisfies their curiousity and lets me get back to playing. Why they never ask the piper next to me flailing away on the regulators what it is that HE'S playing, I'll never know...

I think the correct answer to the question "What's an Irish flute?" is "a flute on which one plays Irish music." Now, for the next question. What is Irish music?

BTW, my "Irish flute" has keys, but if called upon I can also produce Irish music on a keyless flute, or on a keyed flute with the keys blu-tacked up, for that matter. Can't do it on a Boehm, though, although from what I hear some people can...

[glauber]

and some punter comes up and says to me "What's that instrument you're playing?" To which I always reply, "It's a flute." Then when - as they always do - they say "But it doesn't look like a flute..."

The standard answer is: Oh yeah? You don't look so hot either!

[Nanohedron]

"How come you're not playing a traditional flute?"

"Did you make that out of a clarinet?"

"Is that a real flute?"

"OK, I see he's playing a flute, but your thing has keys. What is it?"

:roll:

*reminds self to be kind to people*

[jim stone]

I welcome these questions, especially when
I'm performing. I like it that people show interest
in my flutes, that's one of the things I want,
and I'm glad to explain. Lots of folks have never
seen instruments like these, why should they know what
they are?

What's the problem? Best

[Nanohedron]

No problem. It's just the dissonance between what seems obvious to me and what others are unsure of.

[jim stone]

My difficulty is that I then give them
the abbreviated lecture on the
history of flutes, beginning with
the renaissance....

[talasiga]

TALASIGA'S MUSIC DICTIONARY


Irish Flute:
Any fundamentally open tone hole simple finger system flute, predominantly in D, with or without optional keys, made primarily for performance of traditional Irish folk music and related genre, usually made in Ireland or Irish diaspore or by non-Irish flutemakers cognisant of the requirements of Irish music.
(usage history:- since c. 1969)

Irish Music:
A living folk music tradition, sourced mainly in Byzantine mode derived Christian plainsong and indigenous Celtic and pre-Celtic tribal melodies. In a scalar sense, the Ionian, Mixolydian and Aeolian modes predominate and the G and D signature staff notation best comprehend its range.

[jim stone]

Run, run for your life.
They'll never catch you once
you reach the Outback.
Homeric courage!