Si Beag Si Mor -- Origin of the story?

[mcfeeley]

I've been trying to track down the story of the battle between the Fairies immortalized in O'Carolin's Si Beag Si Mor. I managed to find a poem that describes the battle, but no source was listed. It's tacked it on the bottom of this post for review. Does anyone know any more about the Si Beag Si Mor story? Thanks for any help!

-------------------------[snip!]-------------------------------------

http://userwww.sfsu.edu/~kennerly/damie ... ales1.html


Fairy Hills
Hotaru

Long long ago in this ancient land,
A battle took place where two hills now stand.
And on the plain there lay the slain..
For neither the battle was won.
So the bard did sing of these Fairy Hills
where bloom the white flowers and daffodiles.
One big, One small..
Si Beag, Si Mor
And never the battle is won.
Beneath these hills great heroes lie
of Red Branch Knights and their ancient foe
In still of night, the immortals fight
But never the battle is won.
And so the harper was told of these Fairy Tales
Of these Fairy Hills of ancient Gaels
One big, One small
Si Beag, Si Mor
And never the battle is won.
Twas after the battle the prophet foretold
No rest would come for these warriors bold.
Till they unite and fight one common foe..
And than would the battle be won.
So then the harper wrote of these fairy hills
Where bloom the white flowers and daffodiles.
One big, One small
Si Beag, Si mor
And never the battle is one.

[Wombat]

That's pretty much the story as I recall it. But do you have a realistic date for when the poem was written. That might give us a clue.

[fearfaoin]

So the bard did sing of these Fairy Hills
...
And so the harper was told of these Fairy Tales
...

These lines seem to reference Turlough O'Carolan, so I wonder if the song predates this poem...?

[bradhurley]

Hmm, what I really want to know is whether "Si" is masculine or femine. I've seen this tune's title written variously as Si Beag, Si Mor (masculine) or Si Bheag, Si Mhor (feminine). I talked with an Irish speaker and scholar once who said that the Irish word "Si" is feminine in this meaning (fairy hill), so it really should be written Si Bheag, Si Mhor (and pronounced "she vyug she vore," at least in the Cork dialect). But I've also heard Irish speakers say Si Beag Si Mor (pronounced "she byug she more").

Note that either way, the standard American pronunciation (she bag, she more) is wrong, so all those puns on the title, e.g., "she begged and moaned," or "she begged for more," don't actually make sense.

[Wombat]

One reason I asked for a date is that the idea that the battle would be won if only they could unite against a common enemy makes it seem like yet another allegory for Irish disunity being the cause of British domination. Scots would have no trouble identifying either, and for much the same reason.

[Bloomfield]

I am not going to demean the memory of Turlough O'Carolan's mother by repeating my repeated assertions that all this little-hill big-hill stuff is just that: stuff. And it's not pronounced "she vyug she vore" either.

http://chiffboard.mati.ca/viewtopic.php?t=3002

[bradhurley]

Aw, right, I forgot, it's pronounced "Throatwarbler Mangrove."

[glauber]

She begs for more!

[U2]

Bloom - I've heard a lot of different versions, but yours is the one I'll be sharing from here on out.

[mcfeeley]

So the bard did sing of these Fairy Hills
...
And so the harper was told of these Fairy Tales
...

These lines seem to reference Turlough O'Carolan, so I wonder if the song predates this poem...?

and

One reason I asked for a date is that the idea that the battle would be won if only they could unite against a common enemy makes it seem like yet another allegory for Irish disunity being the cause of British domination. Scots would have no trouble identifying either, and for much the same reason.

I would assume that the story predates O'Carolan (1670 - 1738), since he wrote the music based on the story. That's what I would like to find out -- where the story first originated and how old it might be.

That's a really interesting interpretation -- I'd be interested to know if it turns out to be the correct one.

Thanks for the responses!

[Zubivka]

I talked with an Irish speaker and scholar once who said that the Irish word "Si" is feminine in this meaning (fairy hill), so it really should be written Si Bheag, Si Mhor (and pronounced "she vyug she vore," at least in the Cork dialect). But I've also heard Irish speakers say Si Beag Si Mor (pronounced "she byug she more").

Note that either way, the standard American pronunciation (she bag, she more) is wrong, so all those puns on the title, e.g., "she begged and moaned," or "she begged for more," don't actually make sense.

Thanks for the latter correction of our scandalously approximative puns.

Now I'll know "She slut, she whore" is more, uh... proper?

[mcfeeley]

I am not going to demean the memory of Turlough O'Carolan's mother by repeating my repeated assertions that all this little-hill big-hill stuff is just that: stuff. And it's not pronounced "she vyug she vore" either.

http://chiffboard.mati.ca/viewtopic.php?t=3002

Thanks Bloom -- I found this link in amongst the thread:

http://www.contemplator.com/carolan/sheebeg.html#top

[fearfaoin]

Hmm, what I really want to know is whether "Si" is masculine or femine.

I have wondered this myself, but the only Irish word for "hill" I could find in any online dictionary was "cnoc".
Interestingly, a Scots Gaelic dictionary found the word "sí", which meant "she" (as in "this woman"), and dated back to Old Irish...

When I was learning Scots Gaelic, it was mentioned in passing that the sentence "It's a nice day" could be rendered, depending on which part of Scotland you were in, as either: "Tha e breagha" or "Tha i bhreagha". The day could either be considered masculine or feminine, depending on the dialect. So, maybe the same is happening with "fairy hill"...

At least we can all hopefully agree that "Si Bheag, Si Mor" is wrong. Either "beag" and "mor" are both lenited or neither are. You can't lenite one and not the other for the same noun... unless I'm nuts (always a distinct possibility). So I'd say choose either "Si Bheag, Si Mhor" or "Si Beag, Si Mor" and stick with it...

[glauber]

I have wondered this myself, but the only Irish word for "hill" I could find in any online dictionary was "cnoc".
Interestingly, a Scots Gaelic dictionary found the word "sí", which meant "she" (as in "this woman"), and dated back to Old Irish...

I don't know much Irish, but isn't the ending of the word banshee from sidhe for "fairy"? If that's right, the Beag and Mor are the 2 kinds or sizes of hills.