ON-topic Poll: Nature vs. Nurture

[Chuck_Clark]

Driving in and listening to NPR this morning, it once again struck me that every professional musician I've ever heard interviewed (or virtually all of them, anyway) talks about growing up in a household with musical parents and a constant musical environment.

I have loved music for as long as I can remember - the first thing I ever bought for myself was't a bike or a toy - it was a transistor radio. And yet, every tiny gain I've ever managed was nothing but difficult - from the trombone in high school to the pennywhistle now. Music was all but unknown in the home I grew up in. Other than the Hit Parade on Saturday nights or any musicians onthe Ed Sullivcan Show, there just wasn't any. I know now my mother could sing and play piano - but she never did after we were born. My father has no musical ability or interest - none.

So - I ask your opinions, strictly from curiosity. Is it possible to become a musician without being born one? Or are those not "born to the breed" destined forever to the role of audience?

Just for the heck of it, you might add whether you are yourself a musical professional - i.e. have you, individually or as part of a group, chorale, orchestra, whatever, ever been paid to perform?

[Cayden]

I have no musical background so I am inclined to believe you can have a fair go at it when you are prepared to make the effort. That said, having music around you all the time, absorbing it at an early age like absorbing a language does make an awful big difference. I see loads of young kids starting out in their family and it makes the whole thing so much more natural. But then again, there are also loads of kids from musical families who haven't the interest or who can't make a fist of it. So by the end of the day the interest and the will to have a go at it would be the determining factor to my mind. Now, if you have that AND come from an environment that nurtures and encourages musical skills, then you really have the edge.

[glauber]

The most important thing is to have an understanding spouse or remain single.

[Dwight]

I don't have the answer to your question, but I will say that my experience is similar to yours. Maybe more so.

There was no music in my home when I was growing up. My first grade music teacher tried to give me remedial lessons, but did not succeed. Later, I had to drop out of band because I had allergies that required me to stop and blow my nose during EVERY piece the band played. The band director thought I was being a wise guy, but I really couldn't play an entire song...

By 8th grade, my allergies were under control, but the music teacher decided to excuse me from class that year because I was so hopeless.

In high school, I joined a choir for people who couldn't sing. The teacher and I decided I should drop out because I was the only male.

I got all the way through college without entering the music building. I lived in the liberary and science building.

I took some banjo lessons while in dental school 20 years ago. It was fun, but time demands caused me to put my effort into dentistry rather than music. I remember one Sunday afternoon when a bobcat walked right up to me while I was practicing on a local hilltop. The cat thought I an an injured animal.

Recently, I have felt a need to become musical I can play a simple tune on my whisttles and I think I do pretty good. I absolutely can't keep time. I got a metronome and tried playing the same note over and over again. I still can't keep in time with the metronome. That's probably OK. I have no intention of playing in a group. I do this just for fun and I will say that whistle is fun.

Dwight

[Wombat]

I answered both. I had both and I'm sure it helped a lot. I don't think it's necessary to come from a musical family to have the right genetic endowment and I'm sure that some people have better genetic luck than others. But, if you do come from a musical family, the importance of music is something you'll take for granted from as early as you can remember.

Being naturally gifted and having exposure and encouragement is probably all you need to play passably, however lazy you are. But to play really well, I can't imagine that you can get there without hard work. I don't think I know of any great musician who didn't work hard. But some very talented people don't seem to have to work as hard as the rest of us to reach the same or a higher level. But it's amazing how hard you have to work to make something sound effortless.

In a couple of areas, not just music, some people have told me that they resented my talent. But after asking them a few discrete questions, it usually turned out that these people had a very different idea of hard work to what I had. It usually turned out that they measured hard work purely by time spent and not by things like intensity, persistence, asking teh right questions and so on.

[Byll]

My mother was a fine piano player in her youth. She did no active music as an adult. My dad was not a musician, ever. However...and this is a huge 'however', both supported my brother and me in our many music endeavors. They never missed a concert. They never missed attending the football games to see us march in the band. Long before Suzuki studies made it fashionable, my mother sat with me while I rehearsed my early piano lessons.

Did it all make a difference? Absolutely. My brother and I felt completely supported and accepted in our musical activities. Result? I run a recording studio. For a good portion of my life, part of my living was made by my published choral compositions... I now teach a Sociology of Music course in the 8th Grade and Advanced Sound Recording Technology at the college level. I play hammer dulcimer and whistle, professionally. My brother does no active music, but still loves music...Both his children and mine carry on the tradition.

Conclusions? No general ones...But on the personal level, my parents' support and understanding made all the difference...

Best.
Byll

[Caj]

Driving in and listening to NPR this morning, it once again struck me that every professional musician I've ever heard interviewed (or virtually all of them, anyway) talks about growing up in a household with musical parents and a constant musical environment.

It is a fallacy, however, to assume this has something to do with genetics.

Being born into a musical family generally means that you get an early start playing, and that you hear lots of music in your early years. This is a tremendous advantage, akin to hearing and speaking French as a small child rather than trying to learn it later, as an adult.

If we mistakenly conclude that being born into a musical family amounts to nature rather than nurture, then can't we also conclude that speaking French is genetic? After all, there is a very strong correlation between fluent French speakers and people born into a family of fluent French speakers.

Caj

[Wombat]

Driving in and listening to NPR this morning, it once again struck me that every professional musician I've ever heard interviewed (or virtually all of them, anyway) talks about growing up in a household with musical parents and a constant musical environment.

It is a fallacy, however, to assume this has something to do with genetics.

Being born into a musical family generally means that you get an early start playing, and that you hear lots of music in your early years. This is a tremendous advantage, akin to hearing and speaking French as a small child rather than trying to learn it later, as an adult.

If we mistakenly conclude that being born into a musical family amounts to nature rather than nurture, then can't we also conclude that speaking French is genetic? After all, there is a very strong correlation between fluent French speakers and people born into a family of fluent French speakers.

Caj

It's a fallacy to equate a genetic predisposition to display musical ability with coming from a musical family although I'd bet there was a rough statistical correlation. But surely everybody agrees that some people take to music more readily than others who have the same exposure and encouragement. I don't see what that could be based on other than genetics.

Almost all basketball champions are tall. Being tall is in part a genetic matter. Not all tall people have basketballers for parents.

[Darwin]

Driving in and listening to NPR this morning, it once again struck me that every professional musician I've ever heard interviewed (or virtually all of them, anyway) talks about growing up in a household with musical parents and a constant musical environment.

It is a fallacy, however, to assume this has something to do with genetics.

Being born into a musical family generally means that you get an early start playing, and that you hear lots of music in your early years. This is a tremendous advantage, akin to hearing and speaking French as a small child rather than trying to learn it later, as an adult.

If we mistakenly conclude that being born into a musical family amounts to nature rather than nurture, then can't we also conclude that speaking French is genetic? After all, there is a very strong correlation between fluent French speakers and people born into a family of fluent French speakers.j

Speaking French is not at the same level as playing music. It's more at the level of playing ITM vs. Blues. That is, it's based on what you hear growing up, while the ability portion is how well you do at actually executing what you know.

There are lots of factors that go into "musical ability", and there's no way that we can state categorically that none of them are inheritable when we don't even know what they all are.

For the most part, there's only anecdotal evidence on the subject, and very little scientific evidence. For example, three of the hottest guitar pickers I know started out performing on stage on cello at a very early age--between 5 and 10. The question is whether they developed a strong musical ability due to their early training, or whether they were able to respond to that training due to having certain mental and physical characteristics. Unfortunately our society doesn't encourage controlled experiments on children, so I doubt that the question will ever be answered directly.

A good place to gather data might be with Suzuki-method violin students, since they generally start early and have strong parental support. If it's all nurture, then that group should, on average, produce more, better lifetime musicians than the general populace.

For myself, my father played jazz trombone in his youth, but I never heard him play. My mother played piano, but we only had a piano for a brief period of time while I was growing up, and I strongly resisted lessons at about the age of 10. She also played a little ukelele, but I left her Martin out in the rain when I was in the first grade, and it came all to pieces. (She was a bit peeved, as it had been given to her by a movie star, Don "Red" Barry, that she dated before she married my father.) I had a plastic ukelele after that, but didn't really apply myself to it. My parents didn't push me on either instrument. However, there was lots of music to listen to from the radio and phonograph--I understand that I performed interpretive dances for company, but I seem to have blotted out the memory.

Due to the rock and roll craze, I got a guitar in about 1956, but couldn't figure out what to do with it until I got into college. Once it developed into an obsession, I made pretty good progress at it, though I never got as good as any of my cellist friends.

By the way, Chuck, getting paid to play isn't the same thing as being a professional. The usual distinction is that you have to make over fifty percent of your living from something before it's considered "professional".

I've made quite a bit of pocket money performing solo and in bands since my first paying gig in 1962. (I think $200 for the Tumwater Bluegrass Festival is the most I've ever gotten for a single job.) I've also taught guitar and banjo, but I've never made a living from music. (I don't count that first job, although it was my only source of income, since I was sleeping rent-free on my cousin's couch at the time, and all I had to buy with my money was food and cigarettes.)

I don't have a clue what proportion of whatever musical ability I have is nature and which is nurture, but I'm pretty confident that it's not just one or the other, but some combination of both.

[Dana]

Definitely both. I do believe genetics is involved to a certain extent. Each one of us has certain inborn abilities. In addition, being exposed to music at an early age makes things come much more easily. Perhaps it's like language: Experts tell us that we lose much of our ability to learn a new language once we leave childhood.

This being said, nothing substitutes for hard work! I believe that someone who wants to learn a musical instrument for the first time as an adult has so much more on the ball, and so much greater dedication, that they can often progress quite quickly. I've taught the flute to several adult beginners, and they were a blast to teach, because they listened to everything I said, and took it to heart.

So, I think a combination of heredity, environment, and hard work are all involved in making great music. If ya got less in one area, you can always make up for it in another.

Dana

[emmline]

It is a fallacy, however, to assume this has something to do with genetics.

can't we also conclude that speaking French is genetic? After all, there is a very strong correlation between fluent French speakers and people born into a family of fluent French speakers.

Caj

disagree. Most children born into a French speaking family will learn to speak French...as most children born into Swahili speaking family will learn Swahili. An apter comparison would be how successful the French speakers are at learning Swahili at a later time. Aptitude for linguistics is strongly genetic, as is aptitude for music.

As Peter rightly pointed out--those with both aptitude and exposure will be at an advantage, but I can cite several examples from my family(musical exposure) and my in-laws(almost no exposure) where aptitude and exposure do not correlate.

[Montana]

As a number of people have already pointed out, being born into a musical family does not mean you have the "musical genes". The musical family is possibly a combination of nature and nuture; if you inherit the musical aptitude, it will be brought out by being in a musical family. But what a bummer to be in a musical family if you are tone-deaf or totally lack rhythm. It would be like when Soliari bemoans the fact that he can recognize Mozart's genius but does not possess it himself. Soliari worked very hard but knew his work was mediocre.
Conversely, you can be from a family that is not apparently musical but still have musical aptitude. In this case, the parents may just not express the musical characteristic because it was not nurtured when they chose their paths in life. The child of these parents is then lucky if some school music teacher recognizes the talent and can bring out what the home environment will not.
In summary, the best situation is to have genetic combination that lends itself to musical talent and then have that proclivity brought out through nurturing. But if you have no rhythm (have not inherited the ability to feel time), all the work in the world won't help you.
This said, someone with no rhythm or who is tone deaf is at one extreme. Most people aren't this far gone, and most people aren't Mozart. Most lie in the middle (bell curve). For those, I think hard work will pay off in all cases. It's just that some won't have to work as hard as others because their inate ability will be somewhat better.
Remember, genetics usually only leads to tendencies; in only a few cases is inheritance binary. The outcome does depend on the environment.

[Wombat]

The more I think about it, the more I think that hard work breaks down into several things and to go a long way on hard work alone, you'd probably need all of them.

I think there's something like just a willingness to make an effort, a willingness to put in the hours and do things which might not always be fun although making things fun is itself a talent.

Next there's something like passion. Intense practice for shorter periods might be more beneficial than grinding practice for longer periods, especially if the concentration wavers. I don't think practising for long periods would get someone very far if they couldn't do it intensely, at least a lot of the time.

Intelligence is another factor. Knowing what to practice and how to go about it is vital; all the effort in the world will come to nought if you do practice the wrong things and listen for the wrong things. This might look like something that has more to do with talent, but it is a general ability to learn, not a specific musical ability I mean. You can start off with a teacher who can point you in the right direction and show you which questions to ask and teach you what to listen for. So, initially, it doesn't have to be your intelligence. Sooner or later though, you'll need to learn to ask the right questions for yourself. I think all three go together to make up what we tend to call effort, but a failure to understand the role of latter two leads to a lot of frustration ... I work so hard but I don't seem to improve. Well perhaps you aren't really working .. or perhaps you aren't working on the things that will lead to the improvement you seek.

[RonKiley]

I believe that hard work is more important than genetics. There are those who have the genes and won't put any effort into learning any musical instrument. There are others that have little inborn talent but by great effort are able to become competent. I have always had a difficult time learning musical instruments. I also have a hard time learning languages and morse code. I have been told that the three are related in the mental abilities required to learn these things. When I wanted to be an Amateur Radio Operator I expended a great deal of time and effort daily to learn the code. I spent much more time than anyone I knew to learn this but I passed the test and got my license.

I had a good friend that could play any instrument with strings. He played them not just well but very well. He could learn a song after hearing it one time. He didn't seem to put any effort into this. He did play almost every day. When he would be introduced to a new instrument he just felt compelled to learn to play it. He was not from a musical family but he had a brother-in-law who was a steel guitar player. He and I often accompanied the band to places that they played. This was the only family influence he had.

I believe hard work is the most important factor but it doesn't hurt to have a natural inborn talent. When you combine the two you get those very inspiring players that cause us to say, "Boy I wish I could play like that!".

Keep working
Ron

[McHaffie]

I'll admit I didn't think it was possible for anyone to be 'denied' a music gene or whatever you wish to call it, because I was never brought up around music in my family. Other than the TV, and then the radio and records and tapes as I grew older, that was it.

But then came the day that I simply picked up the whistle and started playing. I hadn't learned any tunes of course, but I could mimic some easier, slow and slow aire stuff I listned to immediately. I could keep relatively good time and just naturally slid up and down between octaves... it was actually quite an odd expereince. So I assumed if it was like that for me, then ANYBODY could work hard and play anything they wanted.

Because I've always wanted to play guitar too, and I've had to struggle with that trying to get it down. Piano??? forget it. Can't get my arms and hands to go their seperate ways and do two different things at the same time.

So on one hand, the whistle came very natural to me, string instruments I'm having to work hard on but am making it bit by bit.

I do have a cousin however who has worked his heart out for well over a year on his fiddle and he just can't keep a tune going to save his life, so who's to say for sure... there must be a little predisposition somewhere I'd think. Seeing as how he grew up with a mom and dad that went and played their guitar and fiddle every Saturday night with the rest of the community. He just never decided to try and pick up a fiddle until a year or so ago. (wants to play like his dad someday)

Great topic!!!

Odd......... but then again. So am I

Take care,
John