Cocus-allergy saga continues . . .

[sturob]

Since Andrew mentioned googling cocus wood in another thread, I decided to do just that, and what to my wondering eyes did appear but:

Contact Dermatitis. 1991 Sep;25(3):149-55.

New hydroxyisoflavans as contact sensitizers in cocus wood Brya ebenus DC (Fabaceae).

Hausen BM, Bruhn G, Koenig WA.

Department of Dermatology, University Hospital, Hamburg, FRG.

A 15-year-old girl developed perioral dermatitis and swelling of the lips, having played a flute made of cocus wood for 2 years. Patch tests with wood shavings, as well as with subsequently isolated constituents named Cocus I and Cocus II, were strongly positive. After complete purification, both contact allergens were identified as isoflavan derivatives. While Cocus I was shown to be 7,8-dihydroxy-2',4',5'-trimethoxyisoflavan, the structure of Cocus II could not be elucidated exactly. It could have been either 7,8,3'-trihydroxy-2',4'-dimethoxyisoflavan or 7,8,2'-trihydroxy-3',4'-dimethoxyflavan. The exact position of the hydroxy and methoxy group in C-2' and C-3' can be determined only by complete synthesis of both compounds or by isolation of greater amounts of Cocus II for further oxidation experiments. Due to the stronger patch test reaction and the higher yield of Cocus I in the wood, this hydroxyisoflavan must be recognized as the main contact allergen.

My hospital doesn't subscribe to this journal (who knew there was a whole journal called Contact Dermatitis), but next time I'm at a big medical library I'll look it up. 6 whole pages. It's a case report, but their motivation may have been that this was the first time anyone'd isolated what in cocus causes the allergy.

IsoflavANs (like they say these allergens are) are ubiquitous in the plant world, and in natural systems they tend to be metabolites of isoflavONEs (isoflavones have a carbonyl (=O) group, isoflavans do not). If I remember right, the phytoestrogens in soy products are isoflavones.

But anyway, there you have it. There's actually something in the medical literature about cocus allergy, and it would appear that two compounds have been identified in cocus timber that cause the reaction.

Given the structure of isoflavans, I would imagine they'd be nice and soluble in oils. I think people with cocus allergy tend to have worse flare-ups after oiling their flutes? They migth be liberating these compounds.

Eh, hope you find these little digressions interesting.

I suppose the big negative is that the implication of this article is that this girl played a cocus flute for two years irritation-free, then got a reaction.

Stuart

[Jens_Hoppe]

It could have been either 7,8,3'-trihydroxy-2',4'-dimethoxyisoflavan or 7,8,2'-trihydroxy-3',4'-dimethoxyflavan.

Yeah, that's what I've always said too. (Sorry, nothing constructive to add).

[skh]

I just wish I had had a wooden flute at 15, cocus or not.

(not constructive either )

Sonja

[Whistlin'Dixie]

Me, too, I might actually sound halfway decent by now!

(Of course, I know EXACTLY what they're discussing in that article! )

Mary

[Loren]

Very interesting Stuart, thanks for posting that.

Too bad the furthest I got in chemistry was memorizing the periodic table, at least temporarily.....


Loren

[Cathy Wilde]

I think I'm beginning to experience SLLSS (Sympathetic Lower-Lip Swelling Syndrome) ......

[andrew]

Is a periodic table what auctioneers tend to call an occasional table ?

Sonja , if you are not in fact 15 (which of course I had assumed you are ) , what do you mean by wanting a flute at 15 ? If you mean 150 ,I can understand your problem with the keyboard .God knows how I struggle at 39 ( and if you believe that you believe anything !).

I still can't see what is the problem with silver lip plates .I intend to ask Mr Wilkes for one on my Wilkes Wonder keyless I gave myself for Christmas . The world's ultimate keyless flute .Problem solved .
I won't play any better, but it won't half look pretty .( And if you don't understand pretty you haven't been married long ! ).

[Doug_Tipple]

Hi everyone,

With regard to contact dermatitis and becoming allergic to handling woods like cocus wood, I offer my nonprofessional comments. First, being sensitive to touching certain natural and synthetic substances is quite common. For example, some people are extremely sensitive to touching the leaves of poison ivy, while others are not. I can pull it out of my garden with my bare hands without getting a reaction. Latex is another example of contact dermatitis. For reasons unknown many people seem to be allergic to latex.

Tone woods, like cocus wood, rosewood, African Blackwood, etc. are commonly used for making instruments because of their high density. However, organisms in nature have devised ways of protecting themselves from attack from other organisms, and trees are no exception. To protect themselves from insect infestation and defoliation from birds and other animals, they have evolved complex chemical substances in their structure that protects them from such attacks. When you make an instrument from these tone woods, these poisonous substances still remain in the structure of the woods.

The main problem with working with these tone woods is when you cause dust in the
work area by sanding or otherwise working with the woods. The literature is full of accounts of instrument makers who have died from cancer at an early age. However, just holding the tone woods in your hands while you are playing them, is not a major problem for most of the population. Yet, as with the 15-year old girl who developed the sensitivity to cocus wood, some people do develop sensitivity to these woods over a period of time.

Once sensitivity is developed to one substance, such as cocus wood, it is now being recognized that the sensitized person may find themselves allergic or sensitive to a number of other substances that they were not previously sensitive to. This can escalate to what is now known as multiple chemical sensitivity or MCS, which can be quite debilitating. Dr Andrew Weil, a famous Harvard trained medical doctor and director of integrative medicine at the University of Arizona Medical School, estimates that 4% of all Americans have severe MCS, with a majority being women. Without going into the details as to what happens in the body to cause these reactions to certain substances, suffice it to say that these sensitivities should not be taken lightly. With regard to sensitivities that may develop when playing any wood instrument, such as an Irish flute, my advice would be not to pick up the instrument again, for certain critical sensitive reaction thresholds need to be avoided.

Best wishes and happy fluting,
Doug Tipple

[Whistlin'Dixie]

So, for example, if one has developed a sensitivity to cocus, over time, then will that person eventually become sensitive to ALL woods of that species?

so if an individual were sensitive to rosewoods, would you expect them to be safe if playing a boxwood or dogwood flute? Just curious. (And I know we've been over this before, but it's early....)

Mary

[sturob]

Um, I think generally that if you're allergic to one legume, you could potentially become sensitive to ANY legume. One rosewood, any rosewood, potentially. Practically, some of the ROSIER rosewoods, like cocobolo, seem to be heaps more allergenic than blackwood.

Boxwood is Mother Nature's Hypoallergenic Timber. I think I recall like maybe 1 report (on this forum) of a boxwood allergy that was probably due to the oil used to finish the timber and not the wood itself. Cocus seems super-duper allergenic (hence all the lip-plates/bands and whatnot, even on vintage instruments). Blackwood is less allergenic than cocus, but still gives some people the scratchies.

I'd have to say that in my (un)professional opinion, if you're a pretty atopic individual (asthma, hayfever, nuts, etc.) I'd have to recommend you just start with boxwood. Lined if you don't like a super-woody sound, and unlined if you like mellow.

Stuart

[Nanohedron]

And for those of us who still insist on blackwood, cocobolo, etc., lip plates are always an option. But then, I've always wanted to try fugu, too.

[sturob]

Is that the Japanese puffer fish thingy that has all those glands that have to be removed correctly, or you DIE when you eat it?

I SO want to try it too!

Stuart

[sturob]

Seriously, though . . .

(Even though I am serious about wanting to try fugu!)

I seriously suspect that those of us who think these timbers sound drastically or even subtly different are deluding ourselves. So many variables. And the use/nonuse of various timbers by the Old Masters may just indicate vagaries of the market's taste or available supply more than a dedication to finding the most sonorous timber. I mean, heck, I loves me cocus, but I wonder if it really matters.

And USUALLY, whenever the idea of the dread DBT (DOUBLE-BLIND TEST), or even a single-blind test, comes up, people get all passionate and wacky like I'm asking to withdraw life support from a cute little puppy. Which I'm not.

Stuart

[Loren]

Boxwood is Mother Nature's Hypoallergenic Timber. I think I recall like maybe 1 report (on this forum) of a boxwood allergy that was probably due to the oil used to finish the timber and not the wood itself. Cocus seems super-duper allergenic (hence all the lip-plates/bands and whatnot, even on vintage instruments). Blackwood is less allergenic than cocus, but still gives some people the scratchies.

Stuart

Boxwood dust is another story........ One wears a mask while turning/sanding the stuff in any quantity, or one pays the price.

Loren

[RudallRose]

boxwood dust causes reactions?
Did I read that right?
If so, first I've heard......tell more!