Historical context of "The Rights of Man"?

[Hipbone]

Is there any connection between the tune "The Rights of Man" and T. Paine's document of the same name?

[mvhplank]

At least one musician thinks so:

http://www.blackflute.com/music/tunes/h ... htman.html

via Google search on ["rights of man" paine tune]

M

[Bloomfield]

I've always understood the tune name to refer to Thomas Paine's book. The tune has strong Northumbrian connections, I've always heard, perhaps because of the James Hill thing mentioned below..

Here is what Ceolas' Fiddlers' Companion has to say about it:

RIGHTS OF MAN (Ceart Na Cine Daona). Irish, Scottish, English; Hornpipe. Ireland; Sliabh Luachra region of the Cork-Kerry border, Sligo. England, Northumberland. E Aeolian (Em) {most settings}: D Minor {Williamson}. Standard. AB (Moylan): AABB (most settings): AA'BB' (Cranford, Kerr). Williamson (1976) says the tune was popular in both Scotland and Ireland, though Hunter (1979) believes it was Irish in origin. The Northumbrian composer and fiddler James Hill (who was born in Scotland) is sometimes credited as having composed the tune, apparently on the strength of one assignation to him in an older collection; it remains doubtful he is the author. Tom Paine's (1737-1809) book, The Rights of Man, was written to refute Burke's Reflections on the Revolution in France, and sold a phenomenol (for the time) 200,000 copies in England while causing a furor for its support of the revolution. Paine was burned in effigy on English village greens, and his book was consigned to the flames. The printer who published the book was arrested and a Royal proclamation prohibited the sale of the book, though it continued to enjoy a wide underground circulation, particularly in Scotland and Ireland where it gave support to those who found themselves oppressed. Influenced by Paine's work, a later document called "Declaration des droits de l'homme" was drafted by the first National Assembly during the French Revolution of 1789 to be incorporated into the new constitution of France. The next year the constitution was approved by the captive Bourbon king, Louis XVI, although he was executed soon afterward.
***
Francis O'Neill, the great late 19th/early 20th century Irish collector and musicologist, remarked on the tune in his work Irish Music: A Fascinating Hobby, and remembered that, when first introduced to Chicago Irish musicians at the middle of the first decade of the 20th century, "Rights of Man" was thought to be a new composition which had recently gained currency in Ireland, as it was not in the repertoire of any Irish musicians then playing in that city (though O'Neill's collaborator, Sergeant James O'Neill, recalled a version had been played by his father in Belfast some decades prior). O'Neill included the tune in his 1907 work Dance Music of Ireland, though it was not in Music of Ireland (1903). "A florid setting of this favourite," states O'Neill, "was played by Mrs. Kenny, a noted violinist of Dublin was brought to Chicago by Bernie O'Donovan, the 'Carberry Piper', but in that style it gains no advantage for the dancer." Sources for notated versions: Sligo-style fiddler Paddy Reynolds [DeMarco & Krassen]; Mr. Matthew Archdeacon, National School, Banteer Co. Cork, 1875 [Joyce]; accordion player Johnny O'Leary (Sliabh Luachra region, Kerry), recorded in recital at Na Píobairí Uilleann, February, 1981 [Moylan]; Winston Fitzgerald (1914-1987, Cape Breton) [Cranford]; set dance music recorded live at Na Píobairí Uilleann, mid-1980's [Taylor]. Allan's Irish Fiddler, No. 86, pg. 22. Brody (Fiddler's Fakebook), 1983; pg. 230. Carlin (Master Collection), 1984; No. 290, pg. 163 (arranged by John Rea). Ceol, Vol. V, No. 1. Cranford (Winston Fitzgerald), 1997; No. 41, pg. 15. DeMarco & Krassen (Trip to Sligo), 1978; pgs. 33, 47, & 61. Honeyman (Strathspey, Reel and Hornpipe Tutor), 1898; pg. 42 (3 versions notated in Honeyman's three hornpipe styles--'Sand Dance', 'Sailor's', and 'Newcastle'). Hunter (Fiddle Music of Scotland), 1988; No. 328. Joyce (Old Irish Folk Music and Song), 1909; No. 221 & 294, pgs. 107 (No. 294 is simply labled "Hornpipe"). Kerr (Merry Melodies), Vol. 4; No. 292, pg. 31. Lerwick (Kilted Fiddler), 1985; pg. 55. Mallinson (Enduring), 1995; No. 80, pg. 33. Moylan (Johnny O'Leary), 1994; No. 30, pgs. 18-19. Mulvihill (1st Collection), 1986; No. 11, pg. 91. O'Neill (1915 ed.), 1987; No. 306, pg. 152. O'Neill (1001 Gems), 1907/1986; No. 811, pg. 141. Roche Collection, 1982, Vol. 2; No. 202, pg. 7. Spandaro (10 Cents a Dance), 1980; pg. 42. Taylor (Music for the Sets: Yellow Book), 1995; pg. 19. Tubridy (Irish Traditional Music, Book Two), 1999; pg. 13. Welling (Hartford Tunebook), 1976; pg. 24. Williamson (English, Welsh, Scottish and Irish Fiddle Tunes), 1976; pg. 59. Breton Books and Records BOC 1HO, Winston "Scotty" Fitzgerald - "Classic Cuts" (reissue of Celtic Records CX 59). Claddagh 20, The Chieftains - "Bonapart's Retreat." Flying Fish 051, "Ken Bloom." Front Hall 01, Fennigs All Stars- "The Hammered Dulcimer." Globestyle Irish CDORBD 085, Padraig O'Keeffe - "The Rushy Mountain" (1994. Reissue of Topic recordings). Gourd Music 110, Barry Phillips and Friends - "The World Turned Upside Down" (1992). Green Linnet SIF3040, De Dannan - "Ballroom" (1987). Island ILPS9432, The Chieftains - "Bonaparte's Retreat" (1976). Living Folk LFR-104, Alan Block - "Alive and Well and Fiddling." Shanachie 34016, Joe Burke, Andy Mc Gann and Felix Dolan - "The Funny Reel" (1995). Sonet 764, Dave Swarbrick and Friends- "The Ceilidh Album." Topic 12T309, Padraig O'Keeffe, Denis Murphy, Julia Clifford - "Kerry Fiddles."
X:1
T:The Rights of Man
S:Mickey Doherty
Z:Juergen.Gier@post.rwth-aachen.de
M:C|
L:1/8
K:E Dor
BA|GABd AFGF|EFGA Bdef|gage dBGB|(3AAA AB A2GA|\
BBBA GBGE|DEGA Bdef|gfed Bdgf|eE{G}ED EFGA|\
BdAB GBFB|EFGA (3Bcd ef|gafg efdf|cfBc (3ABA GA|\
BdAB GBFB|EFGA (3Bcd ef|gfed Bdgf|e2E2 E2|]\
^ga|b^gbg ef=ga|b^gbg e2f=g|a^gaf defg|afdf a2gf|\
e^def gfga|b^gbg e2ba|gfed B=cdg|e2E2 E2^ga|\
b^gbg ef=ga|b^geg b2ag|abaf defg|afdf a2gf|\
e^def gfga|bb (3a_ba gfef|gfed Bdgf|e2E2 EFGA|]
X:2
T:Rights of Man, The
L:1/8
M:C
S:Joyce - Old Irish Folk Music
K:E Minor
GA|BcAB GAFG|EFGA B2 ef|gfed Bged|cB (3BAG A2 GA|Bc AB GAFG|
EFGA B2 ef|(3gfe (3fed (3Bgf (3edf|e2 E>E E2||ga|babg efga|baab b2 ag|
agaf defg|agab a2 ga|bc'ab gafg|EFGA B2 ef|(3gfe (3fed (3Bgf (3edf|
e2 E>E E2||

source: http://www.ceolas.org/cgi-bin/ht2/ht2-fc/case=yes

[Hipbone]

Thank you. So when I introduce the song I'll just say that it has a patriotic sounding title and it may be connected in some way to T. Paines book, but nobody knows for sure.

[Bloomfield]

Thank you. So when I introduce the song I'll just say that it has a patriotic sounding title and it may be connected in some way to T. Paines book, but nobody knows for sure.

First, I'd introduce it as a tune not a song. Second I would state that it is named the Rights of Man in reference to Paine's book of the same title, in the same vein of many tunes with titles making (more or less veiled) reference to the cause for liberty and against oppression. For example: The Home Ruler, The Wild Geese.

[John S]

The Title is probably a corruption of "Reithe na Man" The Ram of Man (Isle of), Ram is another name for the Manx cat but thereby doesn't hang a tale.
It could also be the Riots of Man a very appropriate title for this period of history.

John S

[Seanie]

Hello

The 'Home Ruler' was written by a fiddler from Ballycastle Co. Antrim whose name escapes me. He was referring to his missus when he gave the tune its title. Nothing at all to do with Daniel O'Connell.

Regards

John Moran

[Montana]

Okay, I'm interested. Now I want to know the story behind The Wild Geese. I thought it might refer to the Children of Lir who were turned into geese to save them from their step-mother.

[Paul Anderson]

In Irish history the Wild Geese were a group of Irishmen who fled Ireland after yet another defeat at the hands of the english and became soldiers on the European continent, mostly in France, Spain and Austria. This happened, I think, after the Battle of Limerick in 1601. My memory on the time and place is a bit fuzzy as my education was delivered mostly with the help of a leather strap (a charming addition to a Christian Brothers education in Dublin in the 50's and 60's) and immediately forgotten as soon as I escaped their clutches. The good old days, how are ya.

[Paul Anderson]

A correction on my previous (erroneous) post.

The Wild Geese came about after the war between the Catholic James II of England and William of Orange (battle of the Boyne, battle of Aughrim etc.) circa 1690's. After the Treaty of Limerick was signed and then ignored by the winners Patrick Sarsfield led a group of Irishmen to the Continent to serve in foreign armies. This group became known as the Wild Geese. I was off by about a hundred years. Mea culpa.

[Montana]

And as to my erroneous post, the Children of Lir were turned into swans, not geese, and it was their step-mother who made them so...

[fancypiper]

<random thought>I think the "Bonnie Bunch of Roses" means Ireland.</random thought>

[dubhlinn]

<random thought>I think the "Bonnie Bunch of Roses" means Ireland.</random thought>

'Fraid not fancy.
The Bonny Bunch of Roses refers to Great Britain. Us Irish looked upon the French as allies in a war against a common enemy.

Slan,
D.

[GaryKelly]

A correction on my previous (erroneous) post.

The Wild Geese came about after the war between the Catholic James II of England and William of Orange (battle of the Boyne, battle of Aughrim etc.) circa 1690's. After the Treaty of Limerick was signed and then ignored by the winners Patrick Sarsfield led a group of Irishmen to the Continent to serve in foreign armies. This group became known as the Wild Geese. I was off by about a hundred years. Mea culpa.

Didn't they make a film about that? Roger Moore was in it I think.

[dubhlinn]

A correction on my previous (erroneous) post.

The Wild Geese came about after the war between the Catholic James II of England and William of Orange (battle of the Boyne, battle of Aughrim etc.) circa 1690's. After the Treaty of Limerick was signed and then ignored by the winners Patrick Sarsfield led a group of Irishmen to the Continent to serve in foreign armies. This group became known as the Wild Geese. I was off by about a hundred years. Mea culpa.

Didn't they make a film about that? Roger Moore was in it I think.

Sarcasm is unbecoming of you, you cheeky little monkey.

Roger Moore my arse!

Slan,
D.