Thin Walled Flutes

[andrewK]

Is there any reason, when making one of these thin plastic flutes,not to leave thick that part of the headjoint which would normally be occupied by a lip plate ?

[talasiga]

Andrew, that would imply either a cascading bore
or a mounded head joint.

A lip plate is much more elegant and adds volume.

[andrewK]

I have never seen it suggested before that a lip plate could affect the volume of the flute, other than when it is dropped.
How can this be ?
What would be wrong with a " mounded headjoint"? It would produce the needed chimney.You could even put a lip plate on top of your Mound !
You are only talking about a bit of plastic anyway !

[talasiga]

I had a flute repairer make me some PVC fifes in an exotic scale.
He made a pilot without a lip plate and some with lip plate. The lip plated one is louder than the pilot, louder than all my bansuris, my Irish flute, louder than the whistles. It is basically a qualified A fife. It cuts above an amplified sitar, two guitars, a harmonium, two singers and tabla drums in ensemble.

Hows that for a personal confession?

When we perform on stage I can go out into the audience and do an intro. with it and be heard well. Couldn't do it with the pilot which is similar in all but the lip plate.

I have no experience with a "mounded embouchure". If it gives the volume that a lip plate does, the great. Perhaps a flute maker experienced in this and lip plates may comment.

[andrewK]

Ah ! A fife.
I have heard it said of fifes that the volume is the least attractive feature.
Perhaps insomuch as there was a lip plate the fife approached a little nearer to a real instrument !

[talasiga]

Ah ! A fife.
I have heard it said of fifes that the volume is the least attractive feature.
Perhaps insomuch as there was a lip plate the fife approached a little nearer to a real instrument !

You didn't read my post well, did you?
There is a fife without a lip plate and several with lip plate.
The ones with the lip plate are louder.

You said you had never heard it suggested that lip plates increase volume.
My experience demonstrates they do. Controlled experiment with same fife tubes with and without lip plate. Get it?

All the other instruments are softer including normal scale A bansuri (fife size), G flute etc etc. The larger flutes are softest as in Irish flute except for my low C bamboo flute which also has a lip plate. It has the volume of the fife! if not more.

Perhaps a flute maker could explain why?

[andrewK]

No. Talasiga. I said I had never seen it suggested BEFORE....
It is yourgoodself not doing the reading.
What of proper flutes played while the lip plate is off, or before they are fitted ?
I intend to have the odd lip plate fitted before long .To real flutes. I shall get the Flutemaster to make a controlled test if he doesn't split his sides laughing first.

[Jon C.]

Jon C., I am interested in your project.
What is the thinnest you can go with delrin?
Like, could you go down to 2mm (and have the embouchure supplemented with a lip plate) ?

That would be thin! Like Terry said, there has to be some meat on it at the joints, but maybe just thicken it up at the socket? I guess we could use metal tube for the tenon as Terry suggests. The tuning is effected as the thinner wall sharpens the note, so that takes some tweeking. The raised lip plate can be turned, glueing delrin is a nightmare. Only one glue works: Cyanopoxy by Coolchem.
Jon

Is there any reason, when making one of these thin plastic flutes,not to leave thick that part of the headjoint which would normally be occupied by a lip plate ?

Yes, that would not be a problem, I plan on doing a couple of different heads for it.
This head is the more traditional thinned head. My question Andrew, with your vast collection of lovely old flutes, what was the ball-park depth of the chimney on the hole that is blown into, (aka blow hole, emouchure, pie hole...) of these classics from another era? I understan that the thinned head of the R&R sported a chiminey of, say 3.5mm?

Now I know what to do if I have wrist trouble. Make a thin walled flute !

Works for me!

[andrewK]

The thinned flute is with Mr Wilkes . I shall measure it next time I visit.
Robert Bigio would have the info at his fingertips.
3.5 mm sounds awfully shallow.The whole point ( or hole point ) of the thinned flutes is that they were thinned everywhere except where the depth was needed - the finger and mouth holes which were left proud.
Do look for inspiration to th Monzanis with the lightened headjoints.
( see my ivory one on the "what cocuswood looks like " page for the way the head is reeded except for the mouth area ).
The chimney on the ivory one is 5 mm -I have just checked it.

[Jon C.]

Thanks Andrew, that would be great.
Why re-invent the wheel, when you can copy the masterpieces of the world.
I was under the impression that the deep chimney was a later Bohem thing, and more modern flutes.
Jon

[andrewK]

I have just checked a D'Almaine which is to hand. 4.8 mm Seems normal
A great player.
A Card is 4.9 mm and a Wylde 4.85 mm

[Jon C.]

Thanks again!
Jon

[talasiga]

1.

.........

A lip plate is much more elegant and adds volume.

2.

I have never seen it suggested before that a lip plate could affect the volume of the flute, other than when it is dropped.
...........

3.

........
You said you had never heard it suggested that lip plates increase volume.
........

4.

No. Talasiga. I said I had never seen it suggested BEFORE....
......

5.
NO COMMENT.

[andrewK]

I hope there is SOMEONE who can understand all this . I can't.
What a long no comment ! At least no comment was appropriate.

[andrewK]

Look at DCM 0024 ( Boehm & Mendler ) for the sort of raised part I was imagining, JonC.