Irish vs Scottish whistle style

[squeaker]

What are the differences between Irish and Scottish whistle playing? Are the embelishments the same? I am an ex-professional flute player who wants to learn tin whistle so I can play with Cape Bretoners (Nova Scotia, Canada). The Cape Breton music is mostly Scottish but there are no whistle players around to teach me. Will an Irish tutorial book (such as the Complete Irish Tin Whistle by McCaskill & Gilliam) be close enough or will it send me in the wrong direction? Are whistles used as often in Scottish as in Irish music? Most of the references I find on the net talk about Irish traditional.

thanks
Susan

[Bretton]

Here are a couple of things I found:

The Scottish Whistle
http://www.nigelgatherer.com/whist.html

MelBay has a book called "Learn to Play the Scottish Whistle"
http://www.thewhistleshop.com/catalog/s ... ottish.htm

I don't know, but I would guess, that Scottish Whistle probably has more tounguing and is a bit more rythmic than Irish whistle (Scottish snap thing).

-Brett

[gonzo914]

"Learn to Play the Scottish Whistle" is pretty much just a way to get you to pay 20 dollars for a 6 dollar whistle. Unless you really need the sheet music to Old MacDonald, you could give it a pass.

[StevieJ]

Will an Irish tutorial book (such as the Complete Irish Tin Whistle by McCaskill & Gilliam) be close enough or will it send me in the wrong direction?

Avoid that book like the plague - and especially the companion CD - even if it's Irish music that you want to learn. The authors are not Irish traditional musicians and haven't much of a clue frankly.

It seems to me that Scottish whistle playing is strongly influenced by highland piping and indeed many highland pipers are excellent whistle players. I'd look for one of those in your neighbourhood.

Many of the embellishments used in Irish music would not be out of place in Cape Breton music, but there are others (such as rolls) that are specifically associated with Irish music. Although most Scottish whistle players have taken these devices on board, you might raise an eyebrow or two if you use them in CB music. OTOH highland piping techniques adpated to the whistle ought to be right at home.

[kenny]

Hi, Susan - The only distinct “Scottish” style of whistle playing would be the very staccato style employed by Alex Green, which uses a lot of tongueing. The late Jimmy Greenan of Edinburgh used to play in that style too, but it is not a style that is very popular, certainly not with the current generation of players. There are certainly no whistle players in Scottish traditional music who would be the equivalent of Mary Bergin in Irish music. I think it would be fair to say that most of the Scottish whistle players who have been recorded have the Highland pipes as their main instrument, and pipers tend to ignore tongueing altogether, and the whistle is very much a second instrument to them.
Is the whistle as popular in Scotland as in Ireland? The answer would have to be “no”. At the moment, there has only ever been one CD of traditional Scottish music played on the whistle recorded, and that was by Alex Green about 3 years ago.
Before I could comment on a “Mel Bay” tutor for Scottish whistle, I would have to know who wrote it and what their experience of Scottish traditional music is. This is the first I’ve heard of it , and I would think it probably best avoided. There was a tutor for Scottish whistle written some years ago, but it was half in Gaelic, and I’ve never seen it in the shops. I think it was written by Davy Garrett, who is a piper who used to teach around Inverness. There are several excellent Irish whistle tutor books available, but I’m not sure that they would help you with Scottish or Cape Breton music.
Contact me through this site, and I’ll send you some recordings. I have been teaching Scottish traditional music on whistle with 2 organisations in Aberdeen for the last 7 years.

[The Weekenders]

Great contribution, Kenny!! As a listener, I have wondered about this. I hear a bit of whistle on albums here or there, but its usually accompanying songs, with a lot of vibrato etc, not on reels or other fast things. With the neo type groups, like Battlefield Band, it seems to be usually the low whistle I hear.

[Cynth]

Hi Kenny---When you teach then, do you teach whistle playing in a staccato style or do you teach it in the legato tradition of piping? I guess I'm asking if you teach students to tongue a great deal (assuming this is where the staccato comes in, perhaps I am wrong) or do you teach them to play in a legato style with tonguing used for emphasis? Would a person be well advised to look into Scottish piping to learn about appropriate ornamentation?

Bretton----Could you explain what is meant by the Scottish snap thing? Probably I need to do more listening. I am aware of the strathspey which is rythmically unusual, but I hadn't thought of it as snap.

I am just a beginner, so I may have asked some odd things. My tutorial book is for Irish music and it recommends keeping tonguing to a bare minimum and just adding it for emphasis. I know other books disagree. But I really love many Scottish tunes and I have a couple of books and would like to feel I am not butchering them.

[The Weekenders]

Just to answer in case B. doesn't get around to it soon, the Scots snap is the figure of a sixteenth followed by a dotted eighth, as opposed to the hornpipey dotted eighth followed by a sixteenth, each figure representing one beat.

It's most notable in Strathspeys. Now, when pipers play it, they even further shorten that first note, something like a 32nd followed by a dotted-dotted eighth. And its accented by its very nature, so its DAH-duh instead of duh-da . And I think in Strathspeys, the snap is often followed by the opposite figure in the phrasing. I think you can even further say which beat it usually falls in Strathspeys too but I am rusty. The pipers will know. I have seen the Scots snap even show up in a few hornpipes and a polka and mazurka or two. Very fun and very distinguishable.

[Cynth]

Okay, that makes sense. I've never heard it called that, not having been around many music discussions. I remember it by humming Coming Through the Rye. It is a little hard for me to play because it is so not what one is expecting, but that's what makes it so neat. I play (sort of) a song called the Haughs of Cromdale and it has that rythm in some parts. I didn't know the 1/16 was commonly shortened though, so that is interesting. Thanks!

[Wombat]

There was a tutor for Scottish whistle written some years ago, but it was half in Gaelic, and I’ve never seen it in the shops. I think it was written by Davy Garrett, who is a piper who used to teach around Inverness.

I think I own a copy of this book but a quick search didn't reveal it. I would have bought it, sight unseen, from some very obscure source some years ago, probably for not very much. My memory of it is that it was thoroughly disappointing as a learning aid. It was completely elementary with nothing much in it about distincitively Scottish stylistic devices. If you need a book to show you which holes to cover to play second octave E or to give you basic sheet music to Wild Mountain Thyme or The Muckin' o' Geordie's Byre then this might be the book for you, otherwise not.

If I find my copy before this thread disappears from memory, I'll report back on whether or not my memory is accurate.

[squeaker]

Thank you everyone, especially Kenny, for such great information.

Historically speaking, does anyone know if a whistle or other flute-like instrument was ever popular in Scottish music?

The only music I have so far is "The Skye Collection of the Best Reels and Strathspeys", for Violin and Piano, by Keith, Norman, MacDonald. The store at the Gaelic College in Cape Breton recommended it. It has over 400 tunes but I don't know how authentic or accurate it is as a source. Ornamentation is written in and some tunes have articulation noted but most don't. It is not a tutorial - just music. I was interested in the MelRay book because several online whistle sellers recommended it ... but I will look for other suggestions now!

Kenny - What sort of Whistle characteristics would work best for Scottish style music? I would imagine a clear tone and ease of tongueing from what you have said so far.

I spend summers in Cape Breton, Nova Scotia, which has a wonderful Scottish-music community. The local performances are mostly a mix of very traditional and authentic sounding fiddle playing with modern, jazz influenced piano accompaniment. Lots of Strathspeys and Reels with an occasional slow piece. The music in my immediate area does not include either bag pipes or whistles.

[kenny]

Nice to see that there are some players interested in Scottish traditional music on the whistle. I’ll try to answer all the queries posted above. These are my opinions only, and of course anyone is free to challenge or disagree with them. I always find it difficult to explain the differences between playing Scottish and Irish music on whistle. I often jokingly say to students that if they want to play in a Scottish style rather than Irish, just leave out half the ornamentation. There is more than an element of truth in that statement. Scottish fiddle music for instance puts much more emphasis on rhythm and bowing techniques, rather than the elaborate finger ornamentation found in much of [ most ? ] Irish traditional dance music played on fiddle. On the other hand, Highland bagpipe tunes, - which are the Scottish tunes I prefer on the whistle, for obvious reasons, - can have highly elaborate decorations. I wouldn’t use the triplets and “rolls” so common in Irish music so often in playing a Scottish tune. I would also “tongue” notes more than your average Irish player, with the purpose of emphasising certain notes, but my own style of playing would be more legato than staccato. “Tongueing” is very useful in the playing of strathspeys where some notes need to be stronger than others.
Possibly the main difference between Scottish and Irish music – and this applies to all instruments – is in the type of tunes played. The sessions I hear in Ireland at the Willie Clancy week are very heavily biased towards reels, with jigs and hornpipes a very poor second. Scottish sessions these days will include far more jigs and hornpipes, and also a significant percentage of strathspeys, and marches, both 2/4 and 6/8. Music from Cape Breton has been popular here for a few years now, but I’ve never thought it to be great music for the whistle, being very much slanted towards the fiddle. Much of it tends to be in A major, and quite often will use the bottom string of the fiddle , using notes not available on the whistle.
My own favourite Scottish tunes to play on whistle come from piper/composers such as G.S.McLennan – [ “Jig Of Slurs” was his “greatest hit”, but although there’s nothing wrong with the tune apart from being done to death, he wrote some far better ones ] – and Donald McLeod. Also, for some reason I’ve never quite been able to fathom, a lot of the older tunes from the Shetland Islands are very suitable for whistle, and flute too for that matter.
Sorry about the length of this, but it’s a big subject, and I hope at least some of this is of interest. Good luck with your music. If there is anything else I can help with, either post here, or contact me through the site.

[Mandolin Miscreant]

Hi Susan,

For me the Scottish band Ossian are possibly the Scottish equavalent of the Irish band The Chieftains and use whistle aplenty. I suppose their whistle style is mainly determined by the very distinct Scottish tunes that sounds worlds apart from anything Irish - I was just wondering whether it's the type of tunes played that helps define the style?

Another Scottish favourite are 'Silly Wizard' some of the whistle playing on their album 'Wild and Beautiful' is literally beautiful. I don't know if it's available on CD though?

But there are others too. Go http://www.greentrax.com/ who seem to specialise in traditional scottish music. I think I'd want to listen to different Scottish artists and take it from there!

Of course, I realise I could be teaching grandma to such eggs!

Mando

[Cynth]

Thank you Kenny for your very interesting information. It would sure be great to hear a few samples of what you are talking about on that "clips" section of this website. I don't know how people record themselves and then get it on the computer, but maybe you already do. Could you let us know at this thread if you ever do that so we can go hear them?

squeaker---I'll just mention a book I got. It is called Antiquities of Scottish Music, edited by Mizzy McCaskill and Dona Gilliam, published by Mel Bay in 2000. It is song and dance tunes from the 18th and 19th centuries arranged for flute and whistle. It has the tunes written out just plain and then written again with ornaments. I have no idea if any of it is proper though, although I think probably the plain tunes are okay. It has a pull-out section of piano accompaniment which seemed odd, but you know how at least on Cape Breton Island the fiddlers often have piano accompanying them, so perhaps this in that tradition. It would be fun to play with a piano I think. It discusses a few things, but it isn't a tutorial book.

If you go to Halifax there is a great music store there--The Halifax Folklore Center---that might have some help. They don't seem to have a website though. I envy you spending the summers on Cape Breton Island. We have gone to Nova Scotia on several vacations and last summer we spent the whole time on Cape Breton Island and heard just fabulous music every night.

[Cynth]

Hey Mando---nice website. It looks like Salsa Celtica will be just the ticket for me. Honestly!
But I know I will find some things there I like and I'll check out those groups you mentioned.

What does "teaching grandma to such eggs" mean? Is it like carrying coals to Newcastle? I just can't seem to get the gist of it. Oh oh. I know this is off topic.