The Irish Flute Embouchure - nature or nurture?

[Terry McGee]

I'm interested in the question of how players coming to the Irish flute (now and in earlier times) learned how to blow the flute.

We can see how modern classical players come to their approach - they are inheriting it in a very formal learning process from those who have gone before. In addition, they don't have a lot of choice in the matter as unless you adopt pretty much the standard approach, the instrument will play too flat.

I can see a number of possibilities with Irish flute:

1. It's natural. You pick up a flute and blow it, and, unless someone interferes, you arrive naturally at the way the Irish play. There is no need for tutoring. (By comparison then, it is clear that the modern classical approach is unnatural and requires tuition to enforce.) A non-fluteplayer washed up on a desert island with a flute, a container-load of food and nothing else to do will a year later be giving Matt Malloy a run for his money.

2. It's a school, nurtured by tuition, perhaps less formal that the Conservatoire school, but effective in producing a relatively standardised outcome.

3. It's a tradition, nurtured in the way traditions are, by a mix of relatively informal tuition (No, like this, for God's sake. Wherever does this boy get his ideas from, it must be his Father's side, God be good to him) and imitation (have you heard that flute player in Westport, God, he's mighty, I've been trying to see how he does it.).

4. It's a mix, but of which ones?

I'd be interested in views and experiences that might cast light on the topic.

Terry

[Jayhawk]

Terry,

I think it's a mix of 2 & 3. My own journey started in the early 80s with about 5 lessons on Boehm flute, but then I didn't touch a flute of any sort for years - I was primarily a sax player.

Then, I tried teaching myself a bit on a festival bought bamboo flute and the infamous Hall crystal flute in the 90s, but I primarily played whistle in the 90s.

Finally, about 2-3 years ago, I made several bamboo flutes and PVC pipe flutes (learned quite a bit from that), found this board, bought a conical bore flute and found a small slow session. Since then between hints from the session leader (a flute player), a few books (Timbre and Laren's tome), listening to a ton of CDs, and tips on the web and this board, I'm doing OK.

Eric

[monkey587]

Years ago, my ex had a fife and a silver flute (which I am hoping to acquire...) on which she showed me how to produce a basic tone using the classical "smile." I quickly forgot about that, but I kinda dabbled in winds from time to time after that, and although I assumed that everything I was doing was 'wrong,' it sometimes worked and I didn't really care enough to make it 'proper'.

Fastforward many years, I bought a tipple flute a few months ago and the next day had a lesson with a very good local flute player. I found that my lazy/minimally-informed embouchure didn't need to change much to get an 'irish' sound. Without her help, I had little idea of WHY it actually worked, so it was very inconsistent. Now that I understand why it works, I can reproduce it more reliably. So I think my experience is closest to your #3.

Does this win me a free flute?

[norseman]

I'm still pretty new to flute, but for me it's been a mix of 1) and 2). The first time I picked up a flute, I was able to get a decent sound. It still needed quite a bit of improvement, but I could do it almost immediately. I assume I'll be working on shaping tone for years to come.

I've also been using the books Eric mentioned as well as ideas from other posts here and some of the info on your website. My approach has always been to try as many different approaches as I can find and see what works best for me.

Bob

[Unseen122]

I would say 1 and 3 because I have a very good tone and I have never taken a Flute lesson in fact I have only met one or two other Irish FLute players in my life. As soon as I got into Lunasa and the playing of Kevin Crawford I started to sound more like him I had even been way flat at one point now I am a little sharp because I have been using a tighter embochure to get a more Rudall-esque sound out of my Tipple Flute. Of course the way Irish Flute is played is natural that is why not everbody plays and sounds the same.

[chas]

I could probably have gotten by with 1) alone, but it would have taken much longer. I came to the flute from the whistle. I have always been able to get a decent sound from the wooden or bamboo flute (although I never got a sound from a silver flute till I became somewhat competent on the wooden flute). However, till I had a little instruction, about a year after I began putting honest effort into it, I had some terrible habits. I used waaay too much breath and really blew my brains out in the upper octave. I had a half dozen lessons last year. I had one from a new (to me), highly respected teacher 3 weeks ago, and I've made as much progress in the last 3 weeks as I'd had since my last lesson about 9 months ago.

So for me, I'd say 1) and 2).

[Band Nerd]

I taught myself how to play the Boehm flute, and then various other bamboo flutes, as well as recorder and tinwhistle. I think it is a mix of all of the circumstances.

[peeplj]

I vote 2 and 3.

By the way, I still play Boehm flute with a far different embouchure than I do Irish flute...although sometimes I will use the "Irish approach" for its unique tone color on the silver flute.

--James

[AaronMalcomb]

1 & 3

[Nanohedron]

I think #1 on its own is unlikely except in rare cases. Getting to that trad sound has been a matter for me of getting tips and pointers along the way for the general idea, and a certain amount of ongoing experimentation, too. I lean more to #3.

[Cariad]

(By comparison then, it is clear that the modern classical approach is unnatural and requires tuition to enforce.)
Terry

Not true in my experience. I could just do it and according to my classical teacher have an excellent tone. Tone isn't bad on my wooden flute either (but then I'm lucky to have a Lehart flute!) - 'irish sound' is a bit of a myth to me - I don't know if I have it or not but both my Irish and Welsh teacher think it sounds fine - and I haven't had to work at that either. Its the fingering that gets me!

[Lambchop]

1. A non-fluteplayer washed up on a desert island with a flute, a container-load of food and nothing else to do will a year later be giving Matt Malloy a run for his money.

That would be me, although Matt Molloy needn't fear.

This isn't the optimal situation, but if it is all you have, you forge ahead with it. Even if there was a teacher here, I'd be terrified they would tell me I should give up. (Long history of that . . . )

I have no idea if my tone is anything like what it is supposed to be, nor do I have a concept of what trad tone sounds like.

I find something I like on a CD (WFO, usually) and, if I can find the matching tune online and it looks simple enough, I listen to it over and over until I can whistle it accurately, then put it on the flute. Phrase by phrase. I hear that the sound isn't the same, go back to the CD and listen again, and keep trying to get it closer. (And keep it from morphing into something else!)

Most of my time initially was spent figuring out where the sounds were on the flute and how to get from one to another and how that fit in with the written form. Tone isn't a concern if you can't figure out how to make the sounds at all. Now, I'm more comfortable with that so I work more on the tone.

One thing that really helped change my tone was getting a flute of your manufacture. It enabled me to understand a different sort of tone. It was the tone the flute wanted to make--the easiest to produce on that flute--and having heard it and felt it, it was easy to do on my other flutes.

Edited to add that your kind suggestion to roll the headjoint in and cover more of the hole with my lip helped a good bit, so thank you!

[mcdafydd]

I first learned how to blow an irish flute from a friend of mine who had experience playing similar non-boehm instruments. From his tips I kept trying to get the best tone I could from as little air as possible, thinking that efficiency was of utmost importance. Now that I've started boehm flute lessons, I am often told that I need to "play out more", and I can tell a huge difference when I really push the flute with more air. Octave jumps are easy, note cracks disappear, I feel like I have more flexibility coloring the tone. In trying to keep this efficiency I first learned, my mouth couldn't move around at all as it was so tight. So far, I feel that everything I've learned from both instruments are wholly applicable to either.

Regarding the boehm-style embouchure, what are you referring to that may be viewed as unnatural about it? I think that many, if not most, people are highly unaware of their body's abilities to move and the subtle muscular control that comes with that awareness. So, a "natural" embouchure developed on a flute without training *could* be full of tension in the body and face, and reduce the full capabilities of the sound.

Could you compare the boehm-style embouchure taught today at all to the classical way of singing? It is a very trained style (which I know very little about technically), and incredibly different from the style most folk singers use with more forward placement of the voice. Talasiga, perhaps you might have some insights coming from bansuri playing? Didn't Pannalal Ghosh pattern his flute style highly after the vocal style of Indian classical singers?

Another part of me thinks that a lot of tone quality comes from what the ear likes, based on a person's past experience, physiology, and whatever other contributing factors there are, and the subconscious movements that help produce these sounds.

I think #1 is an interesting idea, but wonder if a person with no access to other players and only the sounds of nature around him/her would get locked into one of the first colors and sounds produced and then nuture it without exploring other possibilities. Because, why would they?

2 & 3 for me.

[Cayden]

From what i see locally children learn to play the whistle, after a while they take up other instruments, by that time they are usually lovely whistleplayers. Those who go to the flute just progress to play their tunes on the flute, no specific tuition is giving re blowing, their teacher (who is a beautiful and powerful fluteplayer) teaches by example, they imitate the tone, learn to play in tune playing together it works fine.

[treeshark]