boxwood acid treatment

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wharfedalecarving
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boxwood acid treatment

Post by wharfedalecarving »

Hi,
I have a boxwood main stock and I understand that there is a process to articficially "age" the colour.
My understanding is that an acid is sometimes applied to boxwood to darken it from white to dark brown. My questions therefore are:
1. What type of acid (and the trade name) is applied to the wood.
2. Can it be bought in small quantities.
3. How is it applied.
4. How long is the acid left on.
5. How to neutralise the acid once the desired effect has been achieved.
6. Does the wood then require any type of sealant.
Joseph (the UK one) :wink:
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Post by Tony »

The process is called: fuming
I think it's sulphuric acid and it's poured into a shallow tray. The boxwood is supported slightly above the level of the acid. Fumes will rise off the acid as it evaporates and it darkens the surface of the boxwood.
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Post by Nanohedron »

I believe Pat Olwell uses nitric acid for fuming boxwood flutes. You could give him a call.
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Post by Chris Bayley »

Nitric Acid - be very very careful it is powerful stuff.
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Post by Jim McGuire »

Here's the gear you'll need:
http://www.baroqueflute.com/tour3.html

Rod Cameron has experience with the process:
http://launch.groups.yahoo.com/group/ea ... ssage/2890
"Having made many experiments, I feel that boxwood original flutes were acid stained first and then mounted in the lathe between cones to be turned down at the sockets for ring fitting. Real ivory will be discolored to yellow by nitric acid. Imitation ivory is unaffected.

For those who have wondered about the best way to normalize any residual acidity after nitric acid staining a boxwood flute, I recommend not to bother soaking or wiping with alkalis such as baking soda or ammonia. Just a little bit of overdoing this will spoil the deep lustre that acid staining gives to the wood's appearance, and instead a rather dull look results. Having tried many different approaches, nothing works as well for me as soaking the stained flute in RAW linseed oil, heated to about 45 degrees C for at least 24 hours. If the flute has already been turned down thin at the sockets to receive rings, then there is a danger of the thinned wood warping during the warm-oil soak. Adding the rings to a stained flute is not a problem and avoids warpage.

For reference, my acid staining procedure is to mix conc. nitric acid into warm water at about 50/50 ration, stir well...some heat will be generated. While still warm, and OUTDOORS, or in a fume cupboard, add iron in the form of small brad nails ( perhaps one or two 1" nails per half a cup of acid/water). Immediately the nail will bubble and dark brown, poisonous fumes will be given off as the nail decomposes. These fumes are very damaging to health, so do not take any chance that may lead to inhaling them. When you are sure the resulting mixture is free from fumes, the flute may be stained using a Q-Tip cotton swob as a brush. The flute may be oil soaked after it appears to be dry. Air temperature affects the ability of the acid to 'bite', so don't stain in a cold place.

Trained chemists will be able to describe exactly what's happening, but my understanding is that the water allows more oxygen, the iron is a mordent and necessary to avoid the unsightly 'black speckles' that appear overnight on boxwood that has been stained only with conc. acid. The iron will not dissolve into the water/acid mix unless either the iron or the mix are hot. If a nail is dropped into the mix and sinks to the bottom with no reaction, then fashion a tweezer of boxwood to hold a second nail, heat the nail and immerse half way into the acid. Once the nail is boiling nicely push it down to the bottom of your glass container until it touches the first nail. Immediately, like an electric contact, the first nail will start to boil and dissolve. More iron makes weaker acid but a darker stain. Th warm raw linseed oil soak ( I am pretty sure it was Cathy Folkers who suggested to me years ago the warm/raw tip...thank you, Cathy!) serves to normalize any residual acidity that lingers in the wood. A sure sign that this has not happened properly is the dark fingerprints around tone holes once the flute has been played for some time. The oil soak does the job without spoiling the lustre. You may set up a good oil soak tank by using a plastic insulated food cooler such as used for car camping. Buy a tropical fish tank heater with thermostat included, and a small immersible plastic water pump (for fish tanks) to keep the oil stirring. Use some inner pastic box with lots of holes to hold your flute parts so that none of the joints touch the immersed heater. If that happens, as darker spot will result where the temperature of the wood got a little too hot."
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Fuming Boxwood

Post by Mike Hulme »

I fume boxwood pegs for violins. I use standard strength nitric acid - not concentrated - and suspend the pegs above half an inch of nitric acid, in a jar for an initial period of 20 - 30 minutes. After this period of time I transfer the pegs to a jar containing ammonia, and leave them to neutralise for slightly longer than the initial acid process.

If you wish to fume a mainstock then please remember that the interior bores will not have been treated by the maker, and will absorb more of the fumes than the outside. Therefore, plug the bores, or you will find that the wood is weakened.

In the 19th century violin makers used to use nitric acid to darken and artificially age whole instruments because old looked (and sold) better than new. Unfortunately many of these instruments are now falling to pieces.

I recommend fuming for a short period of time, and then hanging up your stock in sunlight (or any UV light source). This will naturally mellow the wood down and allow any residual vapours to evaporate.

Mike
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boxwood acid treatment

Post by Hans-Joerg »

Joseph,
I think nitric acid is the right schtuff. It always worked fine. The chemist round the corner sold it in small quantities and in various concentrations. I always used the lowest concentration (~14% for the way described below). As described you can lower it by adding water.

I think "fuming" is a bit of a different process. It is desrcibed in Jim´s posting and referred to by Mike. It is very messy (not only poisonous) and the huge effort does not justify the result (for pipes). A simpler way: I just "painted" the low concentrated acid onto the (ready turned) wood with a paitbrush with natural bristles (they normally have those anyway). Natural bristles do not dissolve that quickly and you can put the paintbrush into water afterwards. As Chris wrote be careful and always do this outsdoors only. The fumes of this low concentrated acid are much less aggressive but they still are poisonous. If your fingers should get a bit you wash it off with plenty of water. It might not burn but you get brown spots. I was going to write "touch not the acid stained wood bot a glove" but those woods always are bored. It therefore is much better to stick in a stick as a handle. The acid is wet like water and it always spreads "homogeniously" onto the wood. You will see the result immediately. I have a chanter that was treated more than 15 years ago. It has become a bit darker than shortly afterwards but only a slight bit really and it even might be due to natural ageing.

I simply let the wood dry and "smoke off" for a few weeks and then varnished it with shellac. After about twice the time you can "trim" it.

Acid staining is a process that the olde woodturners most frequently used. They used all kinds of wood and not just boxwood. The reason: The acid makes the dark parts of the grain darker whereas normal stain is quicker soaked up by the softer, brighter parts of the grain and you get the awkward looking "Negativbild". I couldn´t find a proper English word for this. It is taken from analog photography (take a slide, for example).

Joseph, you live close to Peter Hunter. Ask him. He is very knowledgeable about it.

Best,
Hans
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Post by DMQuinn »

Is it "acid into water" or "water into acid" when diluting? AIW is in alphabetical order, but I don't trust my memory. Is there a device which will help one remember how to spell mnemonic?
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Post by Kevin Popejoy »

DMQuinn wrote:Is it "acid into water" or "water into acid" when diluting? AIW is in alphabetical order, but I don't trust my memory. Is there a device which will help one remember how to spell mnemonic?


AIW, AIW, AIW....say it three times. The acid has a higher density than water and will naturally collect at the bottom, forming an acid/water interface. That's a bad thing. If your method allows a large interface, localized boiling will occur with potentially dire results; spattering of acid all over your delicate parts or worse, breakage of the container. Use a pyrex container and add the acid into the water slowly while stirring constantly to avoid problems.

One trick is to measure out the amount of water you need and freeze it into small ice cubes. Pour the acid into the container with the ice. It will still generate heat but shouldn't get violent. I'd still recommend using a pyrex container. k
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Post by Cynth »

Someone may have said this already but you should also wear eye protection. Eyeglasses at the very least, goggles would be better. Nitric acid isn't actually poisonous (like arsenic), but corrosive. So it would cause burns---the fumes could burn your lungs, eyes, etc. The solution would burn whatever it came in contact with. Rinse your eyes out for 15 minutes if a splash gets in them. I'm not trying to be negative here, just have your safety plan in place in case there is an accident. Do it outside where there is a hose handy.

Kevin's directions for making the solution sound very safe.
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Post by David Lim »

Just to add a couple of points.

Where I work they use this process and additional advice to the above is:

Wear an vapour mask if possible. The fumes produced are oxides of nitrogen and will react with the water in your lungs, eyes etc to form/reform nitric and nitrous acid. These will then dissolve the lining of your lungs etc.

If you get in on your fingers neuralise with an alkali very thouroughly as any remaining acid will slowly eat your flesh. Most people only worry about the brown stains.

Here they use brass to produce the fumes as reaction with the copper in the brass in better than with iron/steel.

The fumes are heavier than air so large items are placed in a small "tent" made of plastic sheeting with the source above.

If any acid in the wood is not completely neutralised the reaction will continue and the wood can eventually goes black.

My personal advice would be get someone else to do it for you :)

David
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Post by kb »

Funny, but I would like to achieve the opposite effect with boxwood: I like the natural color, untreated. But when applying a finish, say, raw linseed oil, it turns the characteristic yellow color.

Anyone know a way to finish boxwood and maintain the beautiful cream color which looks sorta like ivory?

--kb
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Post by Tony »

kb wrote:Anyone know a way to finish boxwood and maintain the beautiful cream color which looks sorta like ivory?

--kb
Sure... ask any good furniture finisher. They could apply a white glaze and French polish (padded lacquer) over it.
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Post by uilleannfinlander »

Mickey Dunne's hints for natural colour(=clean wooden surface) and maintenance for his boxwood
chanters:
first with very smooth steelwool all dirt away, few treatments with danishoil and then waxing it again. Thats all.
btw ..why made acidcolour for natural boxwood, is it just cosmetic =u don't want your fingerdirt shown on it ..or tonal meaning perhaps
wharfedalecarving
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Post by wharfedalecarving »

Uilleannfinlander wrote btw ..why made acidcolour for natural boxwood, is it just cosmetic u don't want your fingerdirt shown on it ..or tonal meaning perhaps"

The colour I'm trying to achieve using acid is for cosmetic reasons but more to the point, I really like the colour of acid treated boxwood.

Finally guys, thanks for your input. Your contributions are really what a forum such as this is all about. I have received good advice "on forum" as it were and also through pm. It would have taken me a month of Sundays to have researched a topic such as this AND not a slagging off or personal insult in sight :)
Joseph (the acid user :boggle: UK one) :wink:
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