flutes and hearing damage

[tin tin]

Questions about the effects of whistles and flutes on hearing were brought up in another thread, but I think this issue is important enough to warrant its own.

A couple of good resources:

An article on the effects of flute (and piccolo) playing on hearing:
http://www.larrykrantz.com/flutesor.htm

Good, inexpensive earplugs:
http://www.etymotic.com/ephp/er20.aspx

[fyffer]

WHAAAAAAAAAAT???!!!

[fyffer]

I've used earplugs in the past, and frankly, I'd rather have a bit of ringing in my ears than miss out on most of the high harmonics that get muffled out.
Most earplugs (haven't tried expensive ones) don't attenuate all frequencies equally, so that the post-plugged-perception is a quieter, though often super-muddied version of the original.

Do any "good" earplugs deal with this problem?

You haven't experienced *real* loud music until you've stood in the middle of a Fife and Drum jam session (esp. Deep River). Up to 300 fifes and drums!
(and yes, my hearing is probably already irreparably damaged...)

[bradhurley]

I've used earplugs in the past, and frankly, I'd rather have a bit of ringing in my ears than miss out on most of the high harmonics that get muffled out...)

I agree. About 12 years ago I spent about $400 on prescription musician's earplugs, and the result was depressing. I used them on and off for a few years and then stopped. Fortunately the problem that forced me to buy the earplugs eventually went away on its own. I was getting a terribly loud crackling noise in my right ear whenever I went up into the second octave...it began with the whistle but eventually started happening with the flute too. It was as if someone was stepping hard on a pile of broken glass right next to my ear. Very loud and very painful.

I went to an audiologist, who said that it seemed the nerve in my right ear was firing prematurely and that there was nothing they could do other than prescribe earplugs.

It comes back every now and then, mainly if I'm stressed out or if there's really loud music around me (one of the many reasons I prefer small, quiet sessions). I never use the earplugs anymore, the sound is just too muffled...kind of like how a car radio sounds when you turn the treble all the way down.

[tin tin]

The ER-20 plugs (link above) have a pretty flat frequency response, and they're only $12 a pair. Not quite the same as the open ear, of course, but a decent compromise between hearing well and hearing safely in louder situations. When I played classical flute (and had to use the third octave), I wore them when I practiced, and I didn't mind them much after adjusting to them.

[bradhurley]

You haven't experienced *real* loud music until you've stood in the middle of a Fife and Drum jam session (esp. Deep River). Up to 300 fifes and drums!

In Brittany a few years ago I was in Pontivy during a bagad competition. Bagadou (plural of bagad) consist of a large number of bombarde players along with an equally large number of Highland pipers, sometimes with a few biniou koz thrown in for good measure, and at least one (sometimes more) full drum kit. There were something like 30 bagadou there, and they were all practicing at the same time...indoors in the hallways between competitions. My head has never been quite the same since!

[tin tin]

30?! I was at a Fest Noz in Quimper a few years ago, and in between the amplified bands on stage, Bagad Kemper played...words fail me, and that's just one bagad. I've seen amplified bands where the bombarde can be heard acoustically above the amplified mix, and I heard bombardes, highland pipes, and piano accordions (all unamplified) compete with huge techno sound-systems on street cleaning machines at a Nouvea Beaujolais parade. (Incidentally, that mix is not my idea of the next big thing in fusion music.)

[jim stone]

how real is the danger?

It's hard to believe celtic flute, D, is going to
hurt one's hearing. We're not that loud or
high pitched. Or what?

I just bought a d fife, however....
What about whistles?

[BillChin]

The sad part is that people with hearing damage rarely know they have it, or admit to it, until it becomes extreme. The danger is real, especially those that play indoors in close proximity to other loud instruments. The damage is permanent and currently irreversible.

The worst I see is with sound men (usually they are guys) that rig up for loud bands. Their hearing is so shot that they continuously crank up the volume to the point of pain for everyone else.

Personally, I already suffer from intermittent tinitus (ringing in the ears). I attribute this partly to listening to loud music with headphones. I know playing loud in the upper register is a way to aggravate it. I tend to try and protect my ears in even moderately noisy environments such as singing in choir. Sadly, I know I have already suffered some irreversible permanent damage. Thankfully it is mild. Many musicians that I know continually expose themselves to much noisier environments than I will. I am sure they are also experiencing permanent damage, but it is slow and subtle.

[Tom O'Farrell]

Probably Boehm system players on metal flutes that get up to the high notes frequently and perhaps whistle players as well are at greater risk than wood simple system players with the much more mellow sound. However it's worth thinking about.

[Hoovorff]

I agree with Tintin that the Boehm flute's third octave can be "dangerous" to hearing. Even more so is the piccolo. Whenever I practice piccolo, I wear the disposable foam earplugs like you can buy at drugstores. Otherwise, the pic makes my ears ring!

Irish flute never causes that effect.

Jeanie

[tin tin]

Jim Stone wrote:

how real is the danger?

It's hard to believe celtic flute, D, is going to
hurt one's hearing. We're not that loud or
high pitched. Or what?

I just bought a d fife, however....
What about whistles?

Ultimately, the length of exposure to a certain sound level determines the risk.

According to the Firth, Pond and Hall study on Terry McGee's site http://www.mcgee-flutes.com/Grey.htm , the volume of various flutes (measured at one meter's distance) ranged from 70-odd dB in the first octave to 85+ dB in the second. But at the ear, only 4 inches from the flute, sound levels would certainly be higher. Looking at the chart in the article, it seems that our ears can be exposed to 85dB for 8 hours before damage occurs. But at 88dB, that exposure drops to 4 hours, and at 91dB, 2 hours. At 94dB, which the article classifies as forte playing, exposure needs to be limited to an hour. So, it seems most of us, who don't aim to rattle the dishes in the cabinet and play flute for an hour or two a day, don't have much to worry about.

Of course, once you add in some more instruments and/or a loud bar, there's more to cause concern.

With a fife or piccolo, I would strongly consider hearing protection. Whistles cause me some concern, too, although they're not as loud.

[lesl]

I wouldn't fool around when it comes to your ears. Having just recovered
the hearing in my left ear after losing its whole eardrum for a month, I
have to say I never appreciated mine till it was gone.

I had a freaky ear infection. And my other ear hasn't worked well since I
was a teen. So I could not hear much for 4 weeks. Couldn't hear other
instruments in a session, my flute was flat and sounded like it was
coming from the Mist Covered Mountain, couldn't hear what people were
saying, and if I slept on the right ear I couldn't even hear my alarm
clock, instead relying on my cat to hear it and wake me up. The only
ringing was in the otherwise deaf left ear.

I spent a month on eardrops, pills, and mega-vitamins. Miraculously the
whole eardrum grew back, the doc cleaned out the last of the stuff in
there and since Thurs afternoon, I can hear again! I drove home with
stereo hearing!

If the music is so loud that your ears start to shut down get a wad of
something and put it in there.

Lesl

[Bretton]

I had a similar thing happen recently Lesl.

I had an ear infection that irritated and/or damaged my aural nerve and I couldn't hear a thing out of my right ear for about 6 weeks. It was very disconcerting! I kept having to turn my good ear towards people when they were talking or I wouldn't catch what they were saying, and I had a terrible time determining which direction a noise was coming from.

The same area the aural nerve runs through also has some nerves that control facial muscles and these too were effected...the right side of my face didn't work quite as well when I smiled or attempted to play flute (couldn't play much at all for about 4 weeks...the embouchure just wouldn't happen).

On the bright side, I now have a much better understanding of what folks with hearing problems go through daily (or at least some of it).

-Brett

[greenspiderweb]

I tend to have sensitive hearing. That is, loud noises usually bother me quite a bit, and can be painful to my ears.

I tend to like the lower keys in whistles, mostly Low D, and also seem to like the darker sounding flutes, as opposed to the brighter sounding ones.

I had a very excellent blackwood Copley flute that I sold, because the tone seemed more piercing to my ears to the point of bothering me. I believe it was the combination of blackwood (very hard and dense, very glass like bore) and the fully lined headjoint that may have contributed most to the percieved loudness. I have since played other unlined wooden flutes that didn't bother me, and a lined poly flute that was fine too.

Most people probably don't have hearing that is as sensitive to loud, piercing noise like me, but it might be the tendency in fully lined blackwood flutes to produce more decibels or a harsher tone, I don't know. Just my thoughts.