What's the Tuning on a bansuri?

[ninjaaron]

I was lead to believe that Bansuries were tuned to a lydian scale. This seems irritating to me. I would not want a flute tuned to a lydian scale.

Steve Gorn is goodness.

[Matt_Paris]

Well, mine are tuned exactly like my irish flutes...

But they are actually tuned to a lydian scale, because to give the key of a bansuri, you use the fourth note, and not the first like in european tradition: a bansuri that would have the length of an irish flute would be said to be in G, and not in D.

G A B C# D E F# G is a lydian scale.

Hope this is clear

[talasiga]

Well, mine are tuned exactly like my irish flutes...

But they are actually tuned to a lydian scale, because to give the key of a bansuri, you use the fourth note, and not the first like in european tradition: a bansuri that would have the length of an irish flute would be said to be in G, and not in D.

G A B C# D E F# G is a lydian scale.

Hope this is clear

Matt_Paris' post has my blessing.

BTW Ninjaron, you cannot make a bansuri out of PVC. "Bans" means bamboo. However you can make a "bansuri style" flute out of PVC just like Pratten made bansuri style flutes out of wood . Well almost .....heh hehe hehe

Seriously, what makes something bansuri style?
1. Large tone holes tending to elliptical
2. Relatively wide cylindrical barrel with thin walls (making half holing particularly responsive).
3. Embouchure tending to elliptical (but not as much as on some Chinese flutes)
4. The cork very close to embouchure hole to enable easier stoccato techniques.
5. in line tone holes to promote ergonomic pipers' grip (particularly necessary on any cylinder barrelled flute larger than Eb).

Best of luck .

[ninjaaron]

Well, mine are tuned exactly like my irish flutes...

But they are actually tuned to a lydian scale, because to give the key of a bansuri, you use the fourth note, and not the first like in european tradition: a bansuri that would have the length of an irish flute would be said to be in G, and not in D.

G A B C# D E F# G is a lydian scale.

Hope this is clear

I quite understand. I have a big modal improvisation background.

[ninjaaron]

BTW Ninjaron, you cannot make a bansuri out of PVC. "Bans" means bamboo. However you can make a "bansuri style" flute out of PVC just like Pratten made bansuri style flutes out of wood . Well almost .....heh hehe hehe

I had read in another post some place.

Seriously, what makes something bansuri style?
1. Large tone holes tending to elliptical
2. Relatively wide cylindrical barrel with thin walls (making half holing particularly responsive).
3. Embouchure tending to elliptical (but not as much as on some Chinese flutes)
4. The cork very close to embouchure hole to enable easier stoccato techniques.
5. in line tone holes to promote ergonomic pipers' grip (particularly necessary on any cylinder barrelled flute larger than Eb).

Best of luck .

Sounds like I've been making bansuri style flutes without even knowing it then. Except the cork. I like to have it back a little farther.

[ninjaaron]

STEVE GORN!

[s1m0n]

a bansuri that would have the length of an irish flute would be said to be in G, and not in D.

I have a couple of bamboo flutes in A and G bass. The low notes are the sexiest noises evah, but the reaches are brutal--it takes about 30 seconds of finger adjustment and strain to get one to sound. When it does, it's great, tho.

I've never played anything but a really simple tune on them, and never in public.

However, they're stamped with the tonic (G and A) of the major scale, ie, the lowest note. Is this a concession to western prejudice? Are these flutes really designed to play in C and D?

[Matt_Paris]

a bansuri that would have the length of an irish flute would be said to be in G, and not in D.

I have a couple of bamboo flutes in A and G bass. The low notes are the sexiest noises evah, but the reaches are brutal--it takes about 30 seconds of finger adjustment and strain to get one to sound. When it does, it's great, tho.

I've never played anything but a really simple tune on them, and never in public.

However, they're stamped with the tonic (G and A) of the major scale, ie, the lowest note. Is this a concession to western prejudice? Are these flutes really designed to play in C and D?

I love those big bansuris... I even saw a low F (Bb in indian notation) made by Khaim Seligmann. Almost unplayable, but what a sound !

More and more makers, especially if they want to sell on the western market, stamp the western key on the flute (i.e. D for an "irish length" flute). The bansuris I saw in India were in general not stamped at all, or just with the brand.

But all the indian players I know put the "Sa" (the indian tonic ) on the fourth note of the flute. So Hariprasad Chaurasia's "B" flute always plays ragas in E, and Sachdev's "C" plays ragas in F.

(I also have a high quality chinese xiao that is stamped twice: "C" near the 6th hole, and "F" near the third...)

[alessandro]

Bansuris are tuned as any other (keyless) flute!
If you start from the lower note and using the usual fingering you can play the western major scale (ionian). A Dorian, if you start from the second lower note and so on. The point is that as many have stated, seriuos bansuris are identified after the Sa which is the fourth note. So if you play a scale starting from that note and using the usual fingering you will get a Lydian scale. So if you want to play a Ionian scale starting from the Sa, the fourth note, you will have to lower (only using half-holing) the fourth grade of the scale. Concert bansuris are usually tuned with the Sa corresponding to a low E so that the lowest note is a low B. But common tunings are Sa=Eb or D. The holes are always inline. But it is unsuspiciously easy to play them, even fast tunes or ragas, if you use the so called 'piper grip' with both hands.

[talasiga]

.......
Concert bansuris are usually tuned with the Sa corresponding to a low E so that the lowest note is a low B. ........

That is not quite correct. The three finger Sa (tonic Doh) for classical bansuri players can be in any keynote depending on the size of flute and the preference of the player.

The Hindustani classical flute tradition does not require the E tonic only. I think it is wrong to equate the flute tradition with the preference of Hariprasad Chaurasia. Even he will tell you this. There are many peers of Hariprasad and antecedents who play with any number of different keynotes. If you go to HC's flutemaker's (Harsh Wardhan) site you will see the full range of bansuris in all keys.

_______________________________________________

My other point is that ( and I have said this many times here) it is ONLY the classical bansuri tradition that insists on the keynote for all its performances to be at
XXX OOO.

The folk tradition is not so rigid and like the western music tradition will mostly utilise the keynote which is most convenient for the articulation of the mode of the piece being performed.

The folk bansuri tradition is THE older tradition because the flute was not considered (or used) in classical Hindustani music prior to the grand maestro, Pannala Ghosh's, advancement of it in the mid 20th century.

I know quite a few bansuri players trained in India. Their bansuri technique is superior to mine but they WILL NOT PLAY Raag Bhairavi (one of the most popular raags in a scale in the Phrygian Mode). Why? It is too difficult because from the
XXX OOO posi, you need to to half hole 5 notes to get Phrygian.
Too much for high speed and complex lines in this mode.

So I am left to play Bhairavi alone with my sitarist friend. He plays with C keynote and I am using my Tipple Eb for a C Bhairavi from XOO OOO with only one half holing.

You see, I want to play the music rather than promote a dogma!

[talasiga]

.......
However, they're stamped with the tonic (G and A) of the major scale, ie, the lowest note. Is this a concession to western prejudice? Are these flutes really designed to play in C and D?

It's not a concession, it's the truth. Please see my post preceding.
Yes, the classical Hindustani tradition prefers its tonic at
XXX OOO but the scale relativities are not a tradition - they are a fact, a Greek fact if we believe in Pythagoras.

That Londonderry Air is played with XXX OOO tonic does not mean we cannot have XXX XXX tonics on an Irish flute.

As for your question on design, the basic bansuri design (note I used the adjective "basic") is not a recent design. It has been handed down for millenia as part of a FOLK tradition and the roots of the design share commonalities with that of China and the later simple system manifestations in Europe.

I am sorry if I come across as didactic. It is a writing style short cut for me - say what I have and stop cringing. No false modesty. I am happy to discuss with passion if you wish.

[rama]

STEVE GORN!

...been listening to his cd 'colors of my mind' ...very enjoyable


bansuri fluting is the coolest music

[ninjaaron]

STEVE GORN!

...been listening to his cd 'colors of my mind' ...very enjoyable


bansuri fluting is the coolest music

I agree with you. Let the nerds have their semantic wars, This music rocks!

I'm trying to steal some of his ideas. I don't really care how authentic any of it is, I just want to make some music that sounds cool.

Same as my approach to ITM. Use what I like, skip what I don't, and don't stress out about the details. I'm gonna sound like an American rocker boy no matter how many techniques I prefect. I'm happy with that. I sound like me, which nobody else can say (well, perhaps they can say it of themselves but they don't sound like me). If I can play something and have fun with it, that will come across to an audience in a positive way, authentic or not.

By the way, I'm ditching technique at all. I've put in plenty of hours practicing scales, Arpeggios, articulations, writing counterpoint, ear training, studing the music of others, etc... But in preformace, I'd rather it be fun than "culturally authentic", or whatever.

Somehow, I still think that Kenny G is sh*t...

oh well, He's havin' fun and makin money at it. Whatever.

[ninjaaron]

I am happy to discuss with passion if you wish.

That's freakin' right.

Rules for the sake of rules are lame. As cool as Indian music is, I've been reading a bit, and it seems that the rigidity in it is ridiculous. I'm very happy that I've been raised in the American Jazz/Rock tradtion, and trained in the modern classical tradtion, where we piss on rules (after learing them well).

P.S. This isn't some U.S. nationalism bull roar. I'm well aware of my nations many glaring flaws, and have no deep love for it (though I don't really hate it either).

[talasiga]

....................
Rules for the sake of rules are lame. As cool as Indian music is, I've been reading a bit, and it seems that the rigidity in it is ridiculous. I'm very happy that I've been raised in the American Jazz/Rock tradtion, and trained in the modern classical tradtion, where we piss on rules (after learing them well).

.................

Yes, every tradition comes with packaging and some of it is tied with nasty knots. Other knots are not nasty at all - we just don't know how to appreciate their utility. One of the great things about the Indic tradition (when properly or shall I say appropriately digested) is its utility at assisting playing by ear music you may never have heard before.

The tradition has a predominantly melodic approach to music analysis and as it is a predominantly oral tradition, it employs a tonic sol-fa notation as a distilled way of conveying the basics of a piece. This requires a fundamental understaning of the primary modes (types or kinds) of scale. We are able to, say, hear a piece in Irish music and quickly discern it as Asawari thaat (Aeolian Mode) and be able to improvise with it on the spot. By repeated playing along we can identify the very particular melody.

This is why I know (as many here, who profess a modal perspective, know) that the basic keyless flute provides
from XXX XXX = Ionian Mode (Bilawal)
XXX XXO = Dorian Mode (Kaafi)
XXX XOO = Phrygian (Bhairavi)
XXX OOO = Lydian Mode (Kalyaan)
XXO OOO = Mixolydian Mode (Khamaaj)
XOO OOO = Aeolian Mode (Asawari)

The non diatonic 7 note scales of Bhairav, Maarwa, Todi, Pooravi, Kirwaani, Madhuvanti and Sarvari can never be played on a flute without significant half holing regardless of which tone hole is used for the tonic.