So What Makes Ceili Music Ceili Music?

[SilverStrand]

The topic title speaks for itself. I have grown especially fond of Ceili music and have been searching on the internet for Ceili bands. But what sets Ceili music apart from any trad Irish music?

I have looked for a website that explains Ceili music and how it is distinguished from other forms of trad Irish but I haven't found a website yet.

Anyone willing to share their knowledge?

[djm]

Céilí bands of professional musicians first came into being in the early part of the 20th century as the church tried to clamp down on house parties and street dances and force people to do their socializing in controlled dance halls. The music is the same as played by others, but is characterised by the strict rhythm plus combination of instruments. There are no hard and fast rules, but most céilí bands have at least one accordian, often a piano, and too often a trap drumset. If you like this sort of thing check out the archives of RTÉ's radio show Céilí House: http://www.rte.ie/radio1/ceilihouse/. Lots of great music there.

djm

[Guest]

Céilí bands of professional musicians first came into being in the early part of the 20th century as the church tried to clamp down on house parties and street dances and force people to do their socializing in controlled dance halls. The music is the same as played by others, but is characterised by the strict rhythm plus combination of instruments. There are no hard and fast rules, but most céilí bands have at least one accordian, often a piano, and too often a trap drumset. If you like this sort of thing check out the archives of RTÉ's radio show Céilí House: http://www.rte.ie/radio1/ceilihouse/. Lots of great music there.

djm

I don't want to be correcting esp of Radio Eireann - Dublin to the core and of course making the most of their power ahem - but, a ceili house is a tradition that long predates 'dance hall' or indeed anything that we today think of as Irish music. To ceilidh means to visit, and was common even when I was last in Oirland. In fact the best music I ever did hear live was at an old fashioned house ceilidh and not in a Theater or Bar etc.

Generally the people visiting would be 'passing by' and just take the notion to have a chat and visit a while. Sometimes - rarely- besides the visit there might be a few great stories to be heard and even more rare somebody would have a flute, whistle or similar. The harmonica was ofen a surprise and from some of the Yanks over after WW2 t'would be very well played too. But other times there would be mention of music and a return visit or other house meeting/dance discussed but there was never ever a mention of a 'session' that term being soley used for drinking by drunkards and such.

If there was music at somebody's house it would be called just that 'music' and often in some hush, since messers existed even back then, so they would never ever hear of a get-together.

They state did ban 'patterns' way back, don't know the reason for that. The only trad 'bands' at the time were in Co Limerick/Kerry/Cork and consisted mainly of flutes and fiddles, but notice NOTHING else. I also read someplace that the Concertina was very popular, so its no surprise to find it still in Co Clare - here we are talking 1800's OC. Much later even my Mother had one at some time, but OC with that bad times and the war all that passed away.

I think in the 1920's there were committees established and from that followed Ceilidh Bands. Decades later in the 1970s we see a response to that sort of thing from the likes of Sean O'Riada who showed us how far traditional music had progressed in the age of music directed by committee.

Sean, as you probably know tried to create a pre victorian Oirish band with all the correct instrumentation, a sort of non-ee-nohh Oirish band, and as the Cheiftains show, it was a winner!

[brianc]

Q: So What Makes Ceili Music Ceili Music?


A: People.

[Nanohedron]

What can be said about ceili music is that very often the tune sets go on quite a bit longer than you might normally encounter at sessions, depending on the dance; we have to huddle beforehand and arrange what we'll play based on who's on hand to get the strongest common denominator tunewise, and how many times we'll play them. That, and the dancers seem to like their reels fiery.

[Tony McGinley]

What Ceili bands represented for me is
the almost complete and utter hatred of
Irish dance music.

In latter years I have been able to recover my
position on Irish dance music, especially with
hearing the music played by players like
Martin Hayes.

When I was young almost the only form of
ITM on the 'wireless' was the dreaded Ceili band
- which pumped out this 'horrible' music in strict
rythm and with an inappropriate combination
of band instruments.

It took me many years to learn that the music wasn't
horrible - it was the way it was played that sounded
dreadful.

There are many devotees of Ceili music and Ceili
bands and I dont wish to cause offence to them here.

ITM wasn't designed to be played by an 'orchestra'
especially one made up of such a poor combination
of instruments.

ITM, IMHO, is about melodic lines, subtleties of ornamentation
and variation, and rythm. The solo player is the main focus,
even in a group. In a Ceili band most, if not all, of the
subtleties are lost.

Let me quote from Tomás Ó Canninn "Traditional
Music in Ireland"

"The importance that Irish traditional musicians
attach to ornamentation and variation means that
the music can only be fully satisfied in the context
of a solo performance. . . . "Keyboard instruments
for example, and strummed guitars, with their attendan
harmonic implications, will impede the free melodic line
and have no place in a group which is reaching out
towards a traditional goal."

[Björn]

Decades later in the 1970s we see a response to that sort of thing from the likes of Sean O'Riada who showed us how far traditional music had progressed in the age of music directed by committee.

Surely you mean the 60s?

[Martin Milner]

every word Tony wrote[/i]

I agree with Tony. I have a few recordings of Ceili Bands, but I don't listen to them for pleasure, or even to hear new tunes.

I think the distinction is that for Ceili Bands, the dancing is the important thing, whereas for sessions and listening pleasure, it's the music. Thus for a dance, a heavy beat rattled out on a snare drum is acceptable, but nobody really wants to listen to it.

[colomon]

I dunno; I've been listening to the old Coleman Country Ceili Band LP, and while I would certainly prefer to have, say, just Peter Horan and Fred Finn playing the tunes instead of the whole gang, the band still makes for enjoyable listening.

The piano and drum are very much background on it -- less intrusive than the guitar on a lot of modern recordings. Having so many instruments play melody at once sort of smooths over the nuance (though I think you can occasionally here Seamus Tansey doing his own thing) but the lift is still very much there.

I'm working on learning a reel off of it, anyway...

[djm]

djm wrote:
Decades later in the 1970s we see a response to that sort of thing from the likes of Sean O'Riada who showed us how far traditional music had progressed in the age of music directed by committee.

Surely you mean the 60s?

Sorry, friend, I did not write that. That came from Toasty, who is keen on banjo, so we must make allowances.

When people say "céilí music" nowadays they are usually referring to professional céilí bands. Let's not obscure this discussion with rantings on the etymology of the word "céilí". Ó Riada started his band in the late 1950s/early 1960s. He did not attempt to reproduce trad music played in a trad way. He tried to doll up trad music by using trad instruments but in a modern, orchestral way. His approach was quite novel, and he must be given credit for that.

I agree with Tony McG that céilí bands was my introduction to ITM in the 60s, and what put me off ITM and especially free reed instruments. After Ó Riada, his group reformed as The Chieftains, and opened my eyes to the fact that ITM didn't have to sound like céilí bands. The explosion of ITM with the folk rock fusion in the 1970s really opened the field for so many of us, and drew me in so that I would later learn about solo playing and the names of who to listen to. I never got over my dislike of free reed instruments (sorry Steve).

The value of the RTÉ show Céilí House is not the céilí bands, but the many other solo players who are introduced that you would not otherwise get a chance to hear unless you lived in Ireland. In this respect it truly is a Céilí House in the definition that Toasty gave.

djm

[Björn]

djm wrote:
Decades later in the 1970s we see a response to that sort of thing from the likes of Sean O'Riada who showed us how far traditional music had progressed in the age of music directed by committee.

Surely you mean the 60s?

Sorry, friend, I did not write that. That came from Toasty, who is keen on banjo, so we must make allowances. djm

Sorry, I'm no good at quoting (probably because I'm also keen on banjo...).

[Guest]

Now hold on thar! O Riada's thing did not get much attention until the '70s, and as you correctly said he was long in the act at that time! The fat Chieftains were well established in the late 60's, BUT the Dubliners and the rest were far far more popular.

It all made sense to us at the time, I mean - who wants a serious poker faced boring night of who's the most fancy player when you could be laughing your ass off in a pub drinking and still listening to trad?

It was, ahem IT STILL IS, another world alltogether.

Tony hit the nail on the head but I was too nice to spit one out for him, and the reason had nothing to do with the instruments! but with the players.

Like I was trying to say, music by committee was bound to fail because like cooking by committee, all you get is stodge with no personality.

[Nanohedron]

Agreeing with Tony and toasty. Just my personal observance, but to be at their best, professional ceili bands need to perform in fairly tight unison, it seems to me. This is how expression can suffer compromise, I think, and the best you can hope for is "lift". On the other hand, I think there's no reason a good arrangement can't stand in for expression to some degree.

Now, at the ceilis I play at, it's just a matter of who happens to show up to play, so there's no such "polish" --if that's what you want to call it-- as with the pro bands. More ragged, like. Still, the job gets done and with no pianos or trap sets.

[Baglady]

A lot depends on whether you are talking about competition ceili bands that you hear at the fladh, like the Tulla Ceili band or the Kilfenora Ceili band, or the band that plays for the ceili.

At a session the other night a dance caller said he had bought a CD of a Ceili band and it didn't sound anything like what we were playing and it didn't sound like what we play as the pickup band for the ceilis he called at.

The competitive ceili band sound has become a genre of it's own. It has a tight rhythmic beat and no harmonies because it is just dance music. The Groupe Ceol competition has sprung up at the fladh lately, which is for a listening kind of music. More orchestrated.

[Guest]

At a session the other night a dance caller said he had bought a CD of a Ceili band and it didn't sound anything like what we were playing and it didn't sound like what we play as the pickup band for the ceilis he called at.

The competitive ceili band sound has become a genre of it's own. It has a tight rhythmic beat and no harmonies because it is just dance music. orchestrated.

Yup, sure it is. In the Barndance world a ceilidh is all about dancing and very little about visiting, also bands outside of Ireland tend not to be organised where-as in Ireland there is no such a thing as an unorganised ceilidhband. They, all of them, are organised.

The other thing that makes the Irish bands sound so flat is the tuning and volume of the Accordions which are used. This deserves a page or two to drag out all the downers that effect the other instruments, no time for that here!

Next, most of what makes Itrad very interesting to listen to - embellishment - is lost in a wall of sound. A related phenomenon isthe death of 'step dancing' in the age of amplified music. Same thing, I think.

Ceilidh bands did not fail because they weren't great musicians, quite the opposite. They continue today into what I can only compare to Moroccan dirges played unamplified. It's the attempt to have every instrument playing exactly the same thing which stifles the whole thing, and I think sooner or later for that reason it will be replaced by something closer to what the Chieftains do.