As a flute player, I know there are reasonable "Holy Grail" flutes and makers that we covet. Rudall/Rose, Pratten and such on the older antiques.
The same true for old pipes, such as Taylor.
Even Clark whistles are old and sought after by some.
But I've never heard.....and might not have been listening intently enough....to the comperable list of violins/fiddles makers for Trad music.
sure, I know there is Stradiveri and Guaneri....but that's not really reasonable for most pub players. Well....all of them. A reasonably good Rudall can cost upwards of $3,000 and as high as $8,000+ for the terrific ones. Same with Pratten flutes.
But surely there is a list of violin/fiddle makers whose instrument is coveted by the Irish Trad sector.
What names are there?
What about the bows?
Best Fiddle?
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JS
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David --
I'll be very interested in seeing the answers you get on this one. If you check the archives of the Fiddle-L list, you'll see very little discussion of this subject (compared to the amount of back-and-forth about makers and brands on the mandocafe or the flatpick-l lists, not to mention here at C&F). Most of the fiddlers I know play an older instrument they sort of picked up somewhere.
I have a couple of guesses why, but they're just guesses. For reference on prices, take a look at the violins for sale at http://www.vintage-instruments.com/. They top out in a range that's five to ten times that of the most expensive contemporary wooden flutes discussed on this board. That's certainly not an instrument most amateurs could consider seriously (or if they could, they wouldn't be taking it to sessions in pubs, I'd bet). There seem to be plenty of perfectly ok, much less expensive fiddles around, especially if you can find a dealer who caters to trad musicians rather than to the aspiring classical trade, but you have to find them and try them--their virtues and defects aren't brand specific.
That leaves aside the question of contemporary makers. You might search for the Bluett Mandolin/Violin website. I know their mandos are highly respected. And Rodney Miller, a well-known contradance fiddler, was offering his own violins at one point. But I don't know any fiddlers who play a new, made-to-request instrument.
I'll be very interested in seeing the answers you get on this one. If you check the archives of the Fiddle-L list, you'll see very little discussion of this subject (compared to the amount of back-and-forth about makers and brands on the mandocafe or the flatpick-l lists, not to mention here at C&F). Most of the fiddlers I know play an older instrument they sort of picked up somewhere.
I have a couple of guesses why, but they're just guesses. For reference on prices, take a look at the violins for sale at http://www.vintage-instruments.com/. They top out in a range that's five to ten times that of the most expensive contemporary wooden flutes discussed on this board. That's certainly not an instrument most amateurs could consider seriously (or if they could, they wouldn't be taking it to sessions in pubs, I'd bet). There seem to be plenty of perfectly ok, much less expensive fiddles around, especially if you can find a dealer who caters to trad musicians rather than to the aspiring classical trade, but you have to find them and try them--their virtues and defects aren't brand specific.
That leaves aside the question of contemporary makers. You might search for the Bluett Mandolin/Violin website. I know their mandos are highly respected. And Rodney Miller, a well-known contradance fiddler, was offering his own violins at one point. But I don't know any fiddlers who play a new, made-to-request instrument.
Last edited by JS on Thu Oct 06, 2005 2:55 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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RudallRose
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Precisely my point, JS
I mean, I can buy a relatively inexpensive flute -- a delrin model -- that's basically in tune, somewhat audible (loud) and affordable. But if I had my drothers, and the money, I'd be at the big names.
If i'm a fiddler, is it possible any o'le fiddle will do? If so, then why the premium on others?
Again, just curious.
I mean, I can buy a relatively inexpensive flute -- a delrin model -- that's basically in tune, somewhat audible (loud) and affordable. But if I had my drothers, and the money, I'd be at the big names.
If i'm a fiddler, is it possible any o'le fiddle will do? If so, then why the premium on others?
Again, just curious.
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JS
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Maybe more a distinction than a difference, but it isn't that any old fiddle will do, just that some old fiddles carry a much higher market value than others, and some of that value may have more to do with who is selling them to what segment of the market than it does with the sound of the instruments. I paid almost as much for an off-the-rack student fiddle as I paid some years later for each of a pair of pre-war German fiddles--the first wouldn't do, I don't think, for anyone past the beginning stage in trad music (no character in the tone); the other two do fine, although they're very different from each other. But they'd do fine for different players--my son really likes the growly, funky sound of his, and I get along quite well with the lighter tone of mine. I got a good price on them because the dealer, who catered mostly to classical violin students, didn't think they had the qualities of appearance or sound his usual clients would want. I think the premium gets paid for the sound of a particular instrument. I'd be interested to find out that I'm wrong about this, but I haven't run into a consensus about a list of those makers--like Rudall in flutes or Martin in guitars--whose name carries the same presumption of quality, at least not in fiddles mere human beings can afford.
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Guest
Depends on what you want.
The best Violins in the world today are made in Italy.
Even though Chinese Violins of quality compare very well against other regions, the wood they use does not, so even if you spend a lot on a Chinese you'll still be at a disadvantage. However Chinese Student Violins are surprisingly good if a little weak sounding, they could never be accused of making a 'sour' instrument, lol.
Other popular makes tend today to be Eastern European EVEN IF labeled as from someplace else. Cezc, Romanian, Hungarian, Bulagarian etc etc. Of these I have used some very fine student instruments and some superb professional. All I can say is go to the store and plunk the strings - which to me is a great test -, or have a professional Violinist select for you.
Bows tend to be much more forgiving than pesky soundpost/bridge/string and wood complications, therefore you can be more relaxed when selecting one. Beware of Chinese quality lookalikes, there are millions of these around these days and all of them are very bad bows indeed! too heavy, crooked when pushed, badly balanced BUT looking as if they are million dollar bows.
Most students including those at Music schools praise Coda synthetic bows and to tell you the truth it is easy to see why. They come off of a production line under strict quality control, they are easy to use and feel great in the hand.
Probably more important than either Violin or Bow is the string and rosin you select AND how you use them. In general for a cold beginner it is better to use LESS rosin than more, and to have slacker strings than tighter. IOW select a Violin with a shorter string leinght, and when you get it and a bow, do not put too much rosin on the bow.
How much is too much. For a new bow more than it takes to sound the D string with a badly aimed stroke across it, for a use bow - one to two SLOW bow strokes over all of the bow hair should be enough for a couple of hours.
Whatever you decide to do, please do check out
http://www.maestronet.com/forums/
and no matter how trivial you may think the question.
dont be afraid to ask .
The best Violins in the world today are made in Italy.
Even though Chinese Violins of quality compare very well against other regions, the wood they use does not, so even if you spend a lot on a Chinese you'll still be at a disadvantage. However Chinese Student Violins are surprisingly good if a little weak sounding, they could never be accused of making a 'sour' instrument, lol.
Other popular makes tend today to be Eastern European EVEN IF labeled as from someplace else. Cezc, Romanian, Hungarian, Bulagarian etc etc. Of these I have used some very fine student instruments and some superb professional. All I can say is go to the store and plunk the strings - which to me is a great test -, or have a professional Violinist select for you.
Bows tend to be much more forgiving than pesky soundpost/bridge/string and wood complications, therefore you can be more relaxed when selecting one. Beware of Chinese quality lookalikes, there are millions of these around these days and all of them are very bad bows indeed! too heavy, crooked when pushed, badly balanced BUT looking as if they are million dollar bows.
Most students including those at Music schools praise Coda synthetic bows and to tell you the truth it is easy to see why. They come off of a production line under strict quality control, they are easy to use and feel great in the hand.
Probably more important than either Violin or Bow is the string and rosin you select AND how you use them. In general for a cold beginner it is better to use LESS rosin than more, and to have slacker strings than tighter. IOW select a Violin with a shorter string leinght, and when you get it and a bow, do not put too much rosin on the bow.
How much is too much. For a new bow more than it takes to sound the D string with a badly aimed stroke across it, for a use bow - one to two SLOW bow strokes over all of the bow hair should be enough for a couple of hours.
Whatever you decide to do, please do check out
http://www.maestronet.com/forums/
and no matter how trivial you may think the question.
dont be afraid to ask .
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RudallRose
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so i'm essentially correct:
no matter the name, it's the sound.
today, Olwell in flutes means great quality
Anonymous or no-name flutes mean run of the mill, less-than stellar quality. You don't even have to play them to know this.
But a fiddle/Violin......playing it counts.
So while I can spend time evaluating the names on flutes in an auction....and will have a really good idea just from the name whether it will play well or not.....the same isn't true of violins? And if so....how in the world do you ever know what's worth buying at auction or not?
You see, in music auctions there are a whirlwind more violins than flutes, often more than 100:1 ratios!
no matter the name, it's the sound.
today, Olwell in flutes means great quality
Anonymous or no-name flutes mean run of the mill, less-than stellar quality. You don't even have to play them to know this.
But a fiddle/Violin......playing it counts.
So while I can spend time evaluating the names on flutes in an auction....and will have a really good idea just from the name whether it will play well or not.....the same isn't true of violins? And if so....how in the world do you ever know what's worth buying at auction or not?
You see, in music auctions there are a whirlwind more violins than flutes, often more than 100:1 ratios!
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Wormdiet
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I suspect that one reason for the difference in the flute vs. violin markets is that, on a flute, the "quality of the wood" is less important than on a violin. A flute is basically inert when playing because the sound is generated by the column of air IN the flute, not it's walls. IE the wood doesn;t need to resonate. Not so on a fiddle (Or any other string instrument) where is; the wood itself that creates volume. Therefore, violins are a lot more complex than flutes. Not sure where I'm going with this, but it seems that the nature of the instrument plays a role.
OOOXXO
Doing it backwards since 2005.
Doing it backwards since 2005.
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ennistraveler
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Martin Milner
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I agree with much of what Toasty says. 
The whole fiddle/string/set-up/bow/string/rosin combination has so many variables, that there's no one ideal, and it's very much in the ear of the beholder.
One very good player I know has a fiddle that sounds like a cigar box to me - but it's what she's chosen to play.
If you look at the backs of Folk and ITM albums, flute, box, guitar etc players will often name the particular brand and model they play (possibly part of a sponsorship deal). The same is not generally true of fiddle players, and often the instruments are a century older or more, so the maker really isn't bothered.
Of course fiddles are also used to play other kinds of music, and a classical player may be looking for different characteristics.
If there is a holy grail, I'd say it's having a fiddle that's been in the family for years, played by one's father and grandfather.
The whole fiddle/string/set-up/bow/string/rosin combination has so many variables, that there's no one ideal, and it's very much in the ear of the beholder.
One very good player I know has a fiddle that sounds like a cigar box to me - but it's what she's chosen to play.
If you look at the backs of Folk and ITM albums, flute, box, guitar etc players will often name the particular brand and model they play (possibly part of a sponsorship deal). The same is not generally true of fiddle players, and often the instruments are a century older or more, so the maker really isn't bothered.
Of course fiddles are also used to play other kinds of music, and a classical player may be looking for different characteristics.
If there is a holy grail, I'd say it's having a fiddle that's been in the family for years, played by one's father and grandfather.
It don't mean a thing if it ain't got that schwing
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DanTheWhistleMan
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JS wrote:David --
But I don't know any fiddlers who play a new, made-to-request instrument.
The only one I know of is Patrick Ourceau. He said he plays a violin made by an upstate NY, contemporary maker. The maker is apparantly known to specialize in "folk" fiddles.
I think one reason why there aren´t any Olwell fiddle-equivalents is the fact that there are and have been so many more violin makers than ITM flute makers.
Daniel
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meemtp
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Some Italian fiddles can be a bit too much on the bright side, especially the ones based on Stad's models. Del Gesu's are good for ITM. Most older German instruments are darker (usually better for ITM). Most of these are workshop instruments, so the level of fine tonal adjustment and responsiveness is lower. A lot of good Irish Players like older French fiddles. Gerry O'Connor plays a Colin-Mezin that sounds wonderful. A friend of mine who was playing for the Ceili Bandits for a bit while Yvonne Casey was on a break, plays a French JTL instrument. He gets an amazing tone out of it. It's a tough fiddle to play however, he's managed to tame it. The highest quality fiddles are usually a harder to play. One caveat: much like any other instrument, having a top of the line fiddle will not make you a great player....a great player sounds great no matter what they're playing. Especially with fiddles, my advice is to upgrade as you grow. Don't worry about having a fine master made fiddle starting out. You won't sound any different that you would on a $500 Chinese student fiddle. I'm on my third fiddle now. The first, 6 years ago, was $300, the second $500, now I've moved up to a really nice $1700 semi-hand made one. Also, setup is key with fiddles. You could have a Strad, but if it's not set up right, the $500 Chinese jobbie will still play and sound better.
Corin
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greenspiderweb
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I think in general, those who play ITM as well as others in Old Time and Bluegrass, who play a lot of dance type tunes, reels and jigs, and session tunes more specifically are more like Orchestral Instruments (second and third fiddle, etc) whose main focus is not to be a soloist, per se, but more to support the overall tone of the music. So, the requirements for a fiddle aren't as specific as for the concert soloist, who must have a violin that performs acoustically in a superior manner, with tone and projection the main considerations. Most Soloist concert grade instruments are made my major makers, and have been over the years, and don't happen just by accident, just as a concert quality flute.
There are books of known violin makers out there to help with identification of who made what and how many sometimes, and quality valuations also. There are names that command the attention and fuel the fires just as your classic flutes. There have been many violins made over the years to satisfy most poeple, but the cream of the crop are in demand by the people who need or want them for thier professions in the worlds top orchestras, and thus, the high prices paid by some.
Recording artists may overlap with the higher end instruments to get a certain sound that they are after, and are more like the concert soloist, although the needs are very different, and is centered on tone, and maybe quality, if one wants to make an investment (or hopes to).
So, it's not to say that you can't have a wonderful sounding violin for $300, but it may just not be what the high stakes market is after. What you "need for ITM" is up to you, but certainly it doesn't require big bucks-it's what you are satisfied with, for the most part.
Corin is right, set up makes a big difference-adjustments, strings, & bows. There's another market-the famous bow makers. Same thing as I said about the violins, it is open to what you think you need. Some bows command just as high prices as the fiddles they play with them, from well known makers!
I'm glad I don't have those kind of headaches for my fiddling. If it pleases me, that's enough. I don't really care what my cats think!
You know, I really should read my posts before submitting them, I've found 3 spelling mistakes in 2 minutes-so, I'm done editing now-whatever is left-oh well!
There are books of known violin makers out there to help with identification of who made what and how many sometimes, and quality valuations also. There are names that command the attention and fuel the fires just as your classic flutes. There have been many violins made over the years to satisfy most poeple, but the cream of the crop are in demand by the people who need or want them for thier professions in the worlds top orchestras, and thus, the high prices paid by some.
Recording artists may overlap with the higher end instruments to get a certain sound that they are after, and are more like the concert soloist, although the needs are very different, and is centered on tone, and maybe quality, if one wants to make an investment (or hopes to).
So, it's not to say that you can't have a wonderful sounding violin for $300, but it may just not be what the high stakes market is after. What you "need for ITM" is up to you, but certainly it doesn't require big bucks-it's what you are satisfied with, for the most part.
Corin is right, set up makes a big difference-adjustments, strings, & bows. There's another market-the famous bow makers. Same thing as I said about the violins, it is open to what you think you need. Some bows command just as high prices as the fiddles they play with them, from well known makers!
I'm glad I don't have those kind of headaches for my fiddling. If it pleases me, that's enough. I don't really care what my cats think!
You know, I really should read my posts before submitting them, I've found 3 spelling mistakes in 2 minutes-so, I'm done editing now-whatever is left-oh well!
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Barry
Barry
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Doug_Tipple
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I used to repair fiddles for a folk instrument shop in Tucson. The fiddle that I now play is one of the ones that I was working on and decided to buy from the store. It isn't worth much, and the top has several repaired cracks, but I like the way it plays. However, I think that new fiddles can also be a good choice, just as new guitars can be a reasonable choice for the performing classical guitarist. Here is a link to an ebay ad for a Romanian violin. I purchased a similar instrument from this company, and I was delighted with workmanship and the tone of the instrument. One thing that I like about this company is that the photos on the ebay ad are the actual photos of the unique instrument that you are bidding on. I am guessing that they were taken at the factory in Romania. 100 % feedback rating tells alot about the company. You can try the violin for a week and send it back if you are not satisfied. Even though I am not in the market for a new fiddle, I like to look at these ads just to see the beautiful fiddles.link
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greenspiderweb
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I too like this company for their photos of the actual instrument that you are buying, and enjoy looking at the pictures to see which one I would like. Actually, I was considering a lower priced Viola of theirs. The workmanship seems to be good on all of their lines, and as Doug said, the feedback of 100% isn't too shabby either!Doug_Tipple wrote: One thing that I like about this company is that the photos on the ebay ad are the actual photos of the unique instrument that you are bidding on. I am guessing that they were taken at the factory in Romania. 100 % feedback rating tells alot about the company. You can try the violin for a week and send it back if you are not satisfied. Even though I am not in the market for a new fiddle, I like to look at these ads just to see the beautiful fiddles.link
I agree, some new instruments are quite adequate, if not downright pleasing for the money, as I said in another post about the Palatino VN-450 violin, that I used to set up for sale. Hard to beat for the price, but they weren't very flashy with the woods, just good tone, and solid woods. And, you don't have to worry about beating up a nice old violin, that you might want to keep at home sometimes.
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Barry
Barry
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Miwokhill
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The Romanian violins Doug just mentioned are good. You can get a better deal on their ebay store but for really checking them out go to their website directly. I think the best bang for the buck among their models is the Gems 2. -just get rid of the Romanian steel strings and stick on a set of Dominants.