Septic problems ...

[Jerry Freeman]

I thought you were just being fecetious.

Oh, dear.

Best wishes,
Jerry

[Denny]

I thought you were just being fecetious.

Oh, dear.

Best wishes,
Jerry

...and you thought that the problem was down stream...

[Jerry Freeman]

For the record:

I spoke to the previous owner this afternoon. The system was installed in 1982. It has a 1,200 or 1,500 gallon tank (he doesn't remember which). I don't think there's a distribution box. I saw no evidence of one, and he doesn't recall that one was part of the system.

Best wishes,
Jerry

[dwinterfield]

For the record:

I spoke to the previous owner this afternoon. The system was installed in 1982. It has a 1,200 or 1,500 gallon tank (he doesn't remember which). I don't think there's a distribution box. I saw no evidence of one, and he doesn't recall that one was part of the system.

Best wishes,
Jerry

Tanks are usually 1000 or 1500 gallons. If there's no d-box, there must be one long trench. Your town board of health probably permited it in the 80s and should have an "as built" plan. The smaller the town, the less likely this might be. You also want to be careful talking with town officials. There may be rules requiring a certain level of performance. I don't know about NY, but this has become a difficult in MA. The rules are very stringent and compliance can be difficult and expensive. I strongly support the rules but dealing with them can be expensive and annoying. I try to remember that what goes out of the bottom of the field may end up in my drinking water.

Here's a link to a MA DEP site of approved additives.

http://www.mass.gov/dep/water/wastewater/addallwd.htm

[Jerry Freeman]

I think there's more than one leach line. Without a distribution box, the different lines wouldn't be getting as balanced a flow, so one would be likely to fail before the others, if I understand what I've been reading today. The articles I've looked at mention that older systems might not have the distribution box, but they still show a leach field with several lines. I'm sure this system wouldn't just have a single line. The previous owner was a mechanical engineer, fairly well off financially, and he had the system scaled for a houseful of people. For it's time, I would expect it to have been a high quality installation.

Yup. The product's on the list:

Roebic K47 Cesspool Treatment (septic system additive) Roebic Laboratories, 25 Connair Road, POB 927, Orange, CT 06477. Contact person - David Lawler.

I work closely with the codes enforcement officer here (he's helping me get some laws changed). He's a very practical guy, not inclined to make anyone's life more complicated than the minimum necessary to protect their health and safety.

He's complained to me about septic tank rules that don't make sense and how he isn't going to go out of his way to push them. He's got more workload than he can keep up with anyway. Also, people around here are poor, and he doesn't like the idea that some regulations don't protect people as much as they just make them jump through hoops and pay fees they can't afford and that don't get them anything for their money. He's not going to make me dig up the yard if there's any possibility I can get the system working properly another way.

Best wishes,
Jerry

[Lorenzo]

I feel your frustration, Jerry. I went through the same thing with a friend's house a few years ago. I dug down and exposed all lines coming and going to the tank. Finally, I found this little distribution box, and it was plugged. Someone had built a new house, put in a new septic tank, and hooked up to the old drainfield, and backfilled about 4' over the old lines. On top of that, I found the d-box was full of hair, egg shells, banana peeling, and everything else that doesn't break down. Garbage disposals are not made for septic systems!!! And on top of that, the soil was made up of a nasty clay. And on top of that, it was a very rainy season.

Finally got it fixed, but lots of physical labor and very little expenditure replacing pipe. Of course we never reported the failure. Many county and city codes require replacement of the system once it fails. If clay is present, a sand filter system, costing $15-25,000 is required.

I've installed a couple new septic tanks and drainfields since on a couple houses I'm building. There's several types of systems, but if the drainfields are installed with perforated 4" plastic pipe, with rock covering the pipe, the effluent may never even get past the first 15 feet of perforated pipe. It doesn't need to. A balanced flow is not necessary past the T. The effluent is made to flow through the pipe and rock together as a unit, one way or the other, to the left or right--or straight ahead through the nearest pipe (in a 3 pipe leach line). The flow all becomes one after the T (or d-box), moving down where gravity would take it first. The inspector explained this to me when I asked if the perforated pipe had to be perfectly sloped.

The important thing is to make sure the unperforated line to the T (or d-box) is clear. If it is clear to the perforated drainfield lines, there may be other complications like high water, gophers, roots, clay, or other things such as too much dirt over the drain lines, or no weedguard (cloth or hay) over the rock to keep the dirt and mud from filtering down through the rock and clogging the drainfields over time. If solids have made it to the d-box, the T, or the perforated lines, the tank wasn't designed right, or, wasn't pumped out when it got full. Nothing solid should ever leave the tank.

It's important to locate the section where the effluent has ceased to run properly through the lines. I wouldn't recommend any chemical solutions for a quick fix till proper flow and absortion into the soil was established. I like to dig around and find the cause. Works best in the long run.

Just my 2 cents. Good luck!

[Jerry Freeman]

Three weeks later ...

Correction: The product I used was Roebic K-57 (not K-47), their "emergency septic cleaner."

The technical guy at the manufacturer told me that I should see an improvement in about 10 to 12 days. Sure enough, like clockwork it started to flow noticeably better right at about 11 days. Then, over the next five or six days, it continued to improve, to the point that it seems completely normal now.

The instructions I followed were:

Reduce water use into the septic system for at least 24 hours before treating the system.

Then, at night, add one quart of K-57 (a bacterial culture designed to munch on the solid buildup inside the pipes and on the slimy "biomat" that clogs up the leachfield) per 500 gallons tank capacity.

Every three or four days for the next few weeks, add a pound or so of granular urea (if you can find some -- available from Agway, etc., ~$8 per 50 pounds) to provide extra nutrients for the bacteria to munch on and speed their proliferation through the system.

After two or three weeks (or any convenient time later), add one quart per 500 gallons tank capacity, of Roebic K-37 Septic System Treatment. After that, add K-37 once per year (price: $10 per quart).

Total cost: about $70. (Satisfaction guaranteed or money back.)

Best wishes,
Jerry

[harpmaker]

I'm coming in late on this, but am glad to hear that your problem, if not completely solved has at least eased up some.

Some additonal suggestions;

Check your house plumbing for any leaking faucets or toilets...they can easily add enough water to the system to cause an overload

If you don't already have them in place, install flow limiters on all faucets and shower heads.

Double check that the toilets are low water usage models. I know that is standard code now, but back when the code was changed, a lot of toilets were really lousy at doing the job. For awhile there was almost a black market going for the older 5 gallon per flush models., and a lot of them were installed inspite of the new code requirements.

You've already found out adding an active biological agent to the system can help. Even a municipal waste water treatment plant may have to do it occassionally. However, it is not a permanant solution. Despite the manufactuers claims, the leech field will eventually clog.

You would do well to take the reprieve you've gotten to have some tests done on the field itself, such as examining the condition of the existing pipes and a leech test of the ground itself. It usually is a lot cheaper when you are not under pressure of an emergency.

BTW, be very glad you didn't use the ballon...you could have seperated the pipe joints creating even bigger problems.

And have the tank pumped on a regular basis. Not doing so is just asking for trouble as the sludge is going to build up no matter what. A system fully loaded with compacted sludge will cost a lot more to clean out than one properly maintained.

[dwinterfield]

Glad it worked out Jerry.

And a bit of good wholesome septic talk helps keep perspective on some of the other topics.

[Jerry Freeman]

Thanks about the advice about low flow toilets. We do have older ones, so I'll replace them.

I emailed a report on my success and the total cost (about $40 of his competitor's product vs. $1400 of his) to the guy who assured me his was the only product that would solve the problem and all the others were "garbage" and "scams." He continued to try to sell me his product. "You'll be back. That company's products' results don't last."

Anyway, I asked for more information about his company (like, "Where are you located?" "What is your last name?") and he refused to tell me.

When I asked again for some documentation of his company and claims, he got belligerent and tried to intimidate me instead of identifying himself and his company, threatening to have me arrested for "harrassment" and "slander."

I filed a complaint with the Federal Trade Commission.

Then I sent him an email saying, "Hi, Chris. I've filed a complaint with the Federal Trade Commission. Best wishes, Jerry"

For some reason, he seems to have stopped emailing me.

Best wishes,
Jerry

[Flyingcursor]

Pardon my ignorance but I always thought a septic tank was a big, cement lined, hole that periodically filled up and you had to call Roto-Rooter to come and clean out.

I surmise my previous understanding is incorrect. What exactly is a septic system in all it's complexities?

SEPTIC SYSTEMS FOR DUMMIES 100

[BigDavy]

Pardon my ignorance but I always thought a septic tank was a big, cement lined, hole that periodically filled up and you had to call Roto-Rooter to come and clean out.

I surmise my previous understanding is incorrect. What exactly is a septic system in all it's complexities?

SEPTIC SYSTEMS FOR DUMMIES 100

I don't know about 100, but this should tell you more than you need.

http://www.fcs.uga.edu/pubs/current/C819-2.html

David

[dwinterfield]

Davy's link covered the basics. If you want to continue past septic 101, there are many new high tech models for poor (soils, gw etc) locations. They can get very expensive - $20K+ for a single family home.

[NancyF]

Well, well, well.

You haven't lived until you spend 6 months in your camper learning about small septic systems. The hard way.

[Flyingcursor]

Thanks for the link Davy.

I was not aware that the idea is for stuff to flow out of the tank as well as in. Thus my misunderstanding.