What's the difference between Irish and Scottish trad music?

[Louigi Verona]

I've recently been to Scottish dancing evening in a local folk music club, and couldn't really tell the difference between Irish and Scottish tunes.

[StevieJ]

About the same as the difference between Italian and Spanish. Similar, and related, but distinct. Keep listening!

[Roger O'Keeffe]

About the same as the difference between Italian and Spanish. Similar, and related, but distinct. Keep listening!

I'd say that the links between Irish and Scottish music are much stronger than that, there has been more direct transmission from one to the other.

This is particularly evident in fiddle tunes, and especially Donegal music, because there is a long-standing tratition of seasonal migration between Donegal and Scotland.

[Tia]

Someone told me that one play their jigs and reels faster, I cant remember which but I think its the Irish, but I cant tell them apart either.

[AaronMalcomb]

A big difference is the keys of the tunes. The majority of Irish tunes are in D or G Major, Scottish tunes are popularly in A as well as D. That's not a hard and fast rule as you'll find a variety of keys in both traditions but a larger variety with more accidentals in Scottish tunes.

Another difference is rhythm, particularly in jigs and reels. The Scottish variety are popularly played a bit piqued, often with a characteristic 'snap' in which a beat is made up of a very short note followed by a long one. Triplets are more often played with two short notes and a long one rather than three even notes.

Again, these are not uniform differences, especially in Scottish music from 25 years ago (e.g. Silly Wizard) in which Irish music became popular and a lot of tunes and style were borrowed. And, as Roger mentioned, there is a longer history of sharing between Scots and Irish with Donegal music being an example with more tunes in A as well as some of the 'snap' in tunes like 'highlands' and even the occasional 'strathspey'. The latter is a uniquely Scottish dance tune, named after a region in the north-east, in which a reel was played very piqued and characterizes the 'snap'. It developed its own idiom and the word 'reel' was dropped from 'strathspey reel'.

There are various other differences like that Scottish reels are more apt to have only 8 bar parts than 16. Piano accordions are more popular in Scotland whereas button accordions are more common in Ireland. Then there's the whole repertoire of tunes from the Highland bagpipe tradition, particularly 2/4 marches, that are frequently played on other instruments.

I'm only scraping the surface here. But they are all subtle but significant differences that make them unique and are diverse within themselves.

Cheers,
Aaron

[Nanohedron]

Interesting post, especially after last nite's session. There's a new fiddler in town, and she frequently plays with a particularly "Scottish" feel. I asked her about it, and it turns out that that's her main interest, but the reality is it's far easier to find ITM sessions than STM, at least in the States. I have an equal love of both, myself, and am very fond of strathspeys. There were four of us left, and it turned out we all had the Scots thing in common, and so we played Scots tunes for a while longer. We all felt rather naughty and subversive.

It's not easy to pin down what marks "Irish" and "Scottish" playing. To me, it's more an analogy: given the same tune played, "Irish" playing reminds me often of fine jewelled filigree (even when the playing is on the rough side), whereas "Scottish" playing tends more to evoke craggy vistas. Both are a thing of beauty. Again, that's just me.

[monkey587]

Triplets are more often played with two short notes and a long one rather than three even notes.

This is true of irish music as well, except for hornpipes and such. What we refer to as "triplets" are rarely ever triplets in the classical sense... I can't think of any examples of such in my recordings offhand.

I agree with SteveJ, listening is the key. When I first started out in this stuff I couldn't tell the difference. Some of the very popular irish stuff (ie, Altan, Tommy Peoples) are donegal-centric and as such tend to feel more similar to scottish stuff.

My sweeping overgeneralization will be that irish (aside from donegal) tends to be more flowy whereas scottish tends to be more driving. It's not necessarily a speed thing but a rhythmic emphasis thing. I think in scottish you will often hear things played more dynamically even, as though every note was a beat, whereas in irish there's a bit more ebb and flow.

[AaronMalcomb]

Triplets are more often played with two short notes and a long one rather than three even notes.

This is true of irish music as well, except for hornpipes and such. What we refer to as "triplets" are rarely ever triplets in the classical sense... I can't think of any examples of such in my recordings offhand.

I was reluctant to make that statement. You're right, in traditional music triplets are rarely true triplets. But I do find a pronounced difference in Scottish tunes although there are some bits in strathspeys that are purposefully rounder for a contrasting effect, "The Caledonian Society of London" being a prime example.

Nano, I too feel the pain of few or no STM sessions. I enjoy Irish sessions and love playing the flute but the Scottish pipes are my first joy and passion so my flute repertoire and playing take a back seat. Because of that I don't get really pumped to work on session tunes or even attend. If there was a regular Scottish session near me I'd be there with my border pipes every time.

[Cathy Wilde]

Lots of F naturals and B flats!!!!!!!! Plus wild, blazing-fast things like Tam Lin and the De'il Among the Tailors

OK, seriously ... I don't have much experience with Scottish TM, but the Scottish fiddler who used to play around here seemed to approach a tune's rhythms a bit differently ... where often ITM seems to have a bit of a lopey vaguely hornpipey dotted-eighth-sixteenth feel, much of the Scottish music I've heard seems to flip-flop the rhythm (ala a strathspey) to be more of a sixteenth-dotted-eighth. Also, as far as internal rhythm seems to go, Irish seems to skew DAAAH Da Da DAAH, Scottish seems more Da DAAH Da DAAAH.

But those are just observations. Kenny can tell you.

[Louigi Verona]

In other words, Irish and Scottish music are very much alike. =)

Does it happen that both have same melodies or similar melodies?

[Roger O'Keeffe]

In other words, Irish and Scottish music are very much alike. =)

Does it happen that both have same melodies or similar melodies?

Yup, it is quite common to find Scottish tunes in the Irish repertoire, or tunes that some people will recognise as Scottish, plus others that people will argue about. I don't know how much two-way treffic there is, but would be surprised if there were none.

Arguing about whether certain tunes are Irish or originally Scottish is a regular source of light-hearted winding-up.

Some tune names are also a reasonable guide, e.g. the tune that is sometimes identified in Irish collections as "Miss McCloud", recte "Mrs McLeod of Rothsay's reel" according to Séamus Ennis.

Sometimes the tune as well as the name may undergo some change in crossing the water, e.g. Johnny Cope which grew from a two-part song into a five(?)-part tune.

[djm]

blazing-fast things like Tam Lin

Tam Lin is accredited to Davey Arthur, who played with the Fureys - Irish.

Does it happen that both have same melodies or similar melodies?

Yes, many tunes are the same or similar from one repertoire to the next, but with different names. The Scottish often claim to have originated most of the tunes because they were the first to start writing them down in books. The Irish were still too suppressed by the English to write anything down.

If there is any tell-tale feature between Irish and Scottish it is the way the tunes are played - the feeling. Irish tunes are full of swing, with pauses, held notes, and a great feeling of sex and violence. Scottish playing is particularly stiff and rigid, very hard and exact on the beat. Since playing styles depend very much on the performer, you will find different players all over the place as regards how much or how little swing they put into the music, rendering my explanation tentative at best.

djm

[Wormdiet]

There's a lot of crossover, even with regards to Highland Piping. If one looks at the World Championships (for pipe bands) CDs from back in the 80's, many of the medleys have tunes originally popularized by the Bothy Band. Kesh Jig, Farewell to Erin, etc. etc.

Locally we have a Scottish fiddle club, which I sometimes show up to, even with my flute. I can't play a lot of the stuff in weird keys, but it's still interesting.

[AaronMalcomb]

If one looks at the World Championships (for pipe bands) CDs from back in the 80's, many of the medleys have tunes originally popularized by the Bothy Band. Kesh Jig, Farewell to Erin, etc.

After the Bothy Band, most trad groups in Scotland were playing Irish music. Even the Tannahill Weavers' very first LP was mostly Irish music. Pipers like the MacDonald brothers of Glenuig and bands like the Tannies and the Batties carried this into contemporary piping.

They weren't the first to do it. Composers like G.S. McLennan and Donald MacLeod had been arranging Irish tunes for pipes well before the Bothy Band. But there was a sort of en masse migration of Irish tunes after the late '60s. Gradually over the last 20 years Scottish music has been coming into its own.

[cowtime]

My first thought when reading this thread's question on the musical difference was "timing".

It seems I'm not the only one who had that thought.