How Irish is Irish music?

[Brian Boru]

I am a newcomer to playing Irish music, and trying to learn about it, I ask various people "what is Irish music" and needless to say get varying responses. For example when is Canadian east coast music Irish? I was told Stan Rogers is not Irish music (which in my opinion is too bad since "Harris and the Mare" has a lovely tin whistle part). Great Big Sea does a lot of stuff that sounds Irish to me. Would they be considered Irish? "Boston to St. John's" has a lovely tin whistle part. "The Night Paddy Murphy Died" also sounds pretty Irish.

On the flip side, I was recently playing with a group of talented Irish music musicians, each of which was easily orders of magnitude a better player than me. So you can imagine my surprise when they started singing a song whose tune was "You take the high road, and I'll take the low road..." but with different lyrics. I would have thought that was a Scottish tune.

Perhaps you can see my confusion. Is there an equivalent of the "Academie Francaise" for Irish music? Would I be best sticking to tunes I heard as a kid on the "Irish Rover's" show? I don't want to offend anyone or look like an idiot. I can do a half decent rendition of William Blake's "Jerusalem" on the low "D" whistle but I would imagine that would be definately across the line

[Louigi Verona]

Well, tin whistle is well suited for other types of music, not only Irish. It's really not a sin to play non-Irish music with it anyway.

As for your confusion, just last week we were discussing the differencies between Scottish and Irish trad and the result was generally this: the cultures are very much alike. they do have certain different stuff, obvious to the eye and ear, but basically many tune and dances can be found here and there and nobody knows what came first =)

And in conclusion, you'll be able to spot Irish music with experience. Some people with untrained ear think that Irish tunes which I play are Chinese. They say - ah, once more you put those chinese tunes on. To them it sounds alien (thus, chinese, because to most European people Eastern Culture is very difficult to understand)

[Bloomfield]

I am a newcomer to playing Irish music, and trying to learn about it, I ask various people "what is Irish music" and needless to say get varying responses.

Why do you want to play Irish music, if you are not sure what it is? Put differently, forget labels and find the music you like, listen to it and play it.

[djm]

I would have to agree with Bloomer. You have not cited any real case of Irish music. Newfy music is Newfy music. Maritimes music is Maritimes music.

Some of the Nova Scotia/Cape Breton stuff is tinged with Scottish music, as that is their cultural heritage, but what they play is so different from Scottish music that it isn't recognized there as being the same thing. Some of the Newfy stuff is tinged with Irish music, as that is part of their cultural heritage, but as with Cape Breton, it is not quite the same.

Its kind of like the languages that developed in Italy, France and Spain. They each thought they were speaking Latin, but ......

And for both Maritimes and Newfy music, never dismiss the importance of the Quebecois influence on both.

The Irish Rovers were like Chinese food for white people - palatable for you, perhaps, but with small resemblance to the real deal.

Even within the world of real Irish music there are many flavours, and many differing opinions and tastes. There is a long walk between solo uilleann piping to céilí bands to Donnegal fiddling, for example. Give yourself time to taste the many different flavours of Irish music to find what you like. Always avoid modern groups and look for older, solo recordings. In that way you can get an idea of what the music is about and where it came from. Then you can better appraise the modern groups and their many different treatments of Irish music to better appreciate what they are doing (or not).

djm

[colomon]

I am a newcomer to playing Irish music, and trying to learn about it, I ask various people "what is Irish music" and needless to say get varying responses. For example when is Canadian east coast music Irish? I was told Stan Rogers is not Irish music (which in my opinion is too bad since "Harris and the Mare" has a lovely tin whistle part).

Stan was a Canadian folk singer. I'm pretty sure most of his material was original. He was a brilliant songwriter, but he's not Irish and was not trying to be in any fashion. Though I think he did record at least one traditional Irish song ("Dark-eyed Molly" -- on his second album?).

Great Big Sea does a lot of stuff that sounds Irish to me. Would they be considered Irish? "Boston and St. John's" has a lovely tin whistle part. "The Night Paddy Murphy Died" also sounds pretty Irish.

GBS are a Newfoundland band, playing Newfoundland traditional music. There's some overlap with Irish music, and some direct borrowing. "Boston to St John's" is an original composition by their lead singer; the whistle part is just their instrumental guy noodling. "The Night Paddy Murphy Died" is a standard Irish song. (Edited to add -- whoops, my bad, it is in fact a "traditional" Newfoundland song, written by a St John's songwriter.)

To use another example, their song "Captain Wedderburn" is a version of a Child Ballad, "Riddles Wisely Expounded". (The Child Ballads are "English and Scottish Popular Ballads".) The whistle break is an Irish tune, "Give Me Your Hand".

Really, unless you are looking to play music in an Irish session, just go ahead and play whatever you want. There is a lot of terrific traditional music in Canada, at least four or five distinct traditions, some bits of which came from Ireland originally, but which are now clearly separate things. If your goal is simply to have fun playing whistle, there's no reason you shouldn't embrace those traditions, too.

If you are looking specifically to play at an Irish session, then none of the music you've mentioned is really appropriate. If you want to get a better idea of what goes on there, give a listen to "Music at Matt Molloy's" or "Live at Mona's", two great recordings of Irish sessions.

[bradhurley]

Stan was a Canadian folk singer. I'm pretty sure most of his material was original. He was a brilliant songwriter, but he's not Irish and was not trying to be in any fashion. Though I think he did record at least one traditional Irish song ("Dark-eyed Molly" -- on his second album?).

A Scottish song, that one, actually -- penned by Archie Fisher based on some lines from an old Scots Gaelic song, to a Basque melody.

So you can imagine my surprise when they started singing a song whose tune was "You take the high road, and I'll take the low road..." but with different lyrics. I would have thought that was a Scottish tune.

The Irish song that shares the same melody as "Loch Lomond" is "Red is the Rose." Sarah Makem sang it and she and Archie Fisher used to argue about where the melody came from. In his opinion it was "lovely Irish words to a Scots tune," and Sarah held that "it's an Irish tune."

[colomon]

Stan was a Canadian folk singer. I'm pretty sure most of his material was original. He was a brilliant songwriter, but he's not Irish and was not trying to be in any fashion. Though I think he did record at least one traditional Irish song ("Dark-eyed Molly" -- on his second album?).

A Scottish song, that one, actually -- penned by Archie Fisher based on some lines from an old Scots Gaelic song, to a Basque melody.

Ack, you're right. My lousy memory inserted the word "Irish" in the liner notes to the Fairport Convention version of this song, but checking them again, it's not there, and they clearly imply Archie based it on a Scottish song.

That seems to be the theme for my morning -- discovering songs I thought were Irish in origin are actually from somewhere else.

[fearfaoin]

So you can imagine my surprise when they started singing a song whose tune was "You take the high road, and I'll take the low road..." but with different lyrics. I would have thought that was a Scottish tune.

"Loch Lomond" is a Scottish song, yes. But the melody is much older
and probably isn't Scottish (though, I don't know if it's necessarily Irish,
either). The song they were singing was probably "Red is the Rose",
which starts "Come over the hills, my bonny Irish lass". That song
predates "Loch Lomond", but is not as familiar to Americans who don't
regularly attend Renaissance Festivals.


EDIT: ...Yeah, what Brad said.

[SteveB]

djm wrote:

"Newfy music is Newfy music".

Just to clarify, the term "Newfy" (or "Newfie" as is it most often spelled), is considered a bit derogatory by many Newfoundlanders these days, especially when used by non-Newfoundlanders. Most don't mind the term when someone whom they know uses it jokingly in one-on-one conversation. But if you were to show up at a session in St. John's and start bandying the "N-word" around, you'd likely get the cold shoulder (or worse!).

cheers,

SteveB

[I.D.10-t]

To complicate things some “Irish” songs are played by fife players in their style and are considered traditional fife tunes (I’m thinking Garryowen) and would be played much differently than the ITM people would. The sheet music may look the same, but I doubt that many would think they are the same tune listening to the two different styles of playing.

Man, I hope the above makes sense, I was just trying to add another illustration to what was said above.

[Brian Boru]

I am a newcomer to playing Irish music, and trying to learn about it, I ask various people "what is Irish music" and needless to say get varying responses.

Why do you want to play Irish music, if you are not sure what it is? Put differently, forget labels and find the music you like, listen to it and play it.

I sort of know what it is and I sort of don't. A few years ago I went to an Irish event and heard what I later learned was a "slip-jig". I was hooked, and bought a tin whistle ("Waltons"). Then I heard GBS and really liked the low whistle and decided to build my own. Now I am looking for good tunes.

I find it interesting that most of the posts here seem say what Irish music isn't, but not what it is.

[Bloomfield]

I find it interesting that most of the posts here seem say what Irish music isn't, but not what it is.

start here, then: http://www.itma.ie/home/leaf1a.htm

my practical advice is to start buying some CDs, perhaps from a broad range of Irish trad styles, and deciding what you like. Also a good source for tunes. Do you have a friend who knows the music? Hang out at his place and listen to all his CDs.

[Cayden]

Is this going to bring you any closer?

The late Breandan Breatnach defined Traditional Irish music as essentially the art of solo performance - a gift - to which the musician or singer devotes an apprenticship of learning, especially to the great songs and song airs of Ireland. It involves a search for the local footprints of those who have gone before... and it involves a care of not trampling on them when found. It involves a search for the music and songs of one's own place, and if that is not successful, a search for the music to which the individual musical spirit can resonate.

It means having a mind-set to one's gift that is devoid of aggression, of narrow personal ambition, of political preconception. It involves an innocence, a humility in being the bearer of a gift that can infuse musician and listener with a shaft of universal joy. It involves an awareness of the natural, internal rhythm of a piece as distinct from its speed, it involves attention to the smallest detail of a tune or a song and most importantly it involves care and discernment when deciding to add one's own embellishment to a piece of music that has its own local integrity and has stood the test of time.

It also implies a maturity of judgement... an independent ear... an ability to question popular approaches to structure, accompaniment, ornamentation and other received ideas. It also requires a practical language of criticism. In this regard we have to think about the opinion makers in this field and consider how they make their judgements and exercise their influence.

[johnkerr]

I sort of know what it is and I sort of don't. A few years ago I went to an Irish event and heard what I later learned was a "slip-jig". I was hooked, and bought a tin whistle ("Waltons"). Then I heard GBS and really liked the low whistle and decided to build my own. Now I am looking for good tunes.

GBS? George Bernard Shaw? Now indeed he was Irish, but I don't think he played any music, did he?

[Cayden]

Hang out at his place and listen to all his CDs.

So that's why you came over