Candi,
If you can get your hands on one of the early Celtic Fiddle Festival albums, have a listen to the difference in playing between Kevin Burke and the late Johnny Cunnigham. While they both certainly have personal styles, it'll give you a good sense of the stylistic difference between Scottish and Irish music. The main difference is the rhythm and the phrasing.
B
Irish vs Scottish
-
AaronMalcomb
- Posts: 2205
- Joined: Sat May 25, 2002 6:00 pm
- antispam: No
- Location: Bellingham, WA
The more I delve into traditional Scottish music the more I learn how thick the bubble in which pipers and pipe band players exist is. In other words the majority of pipers know f$*k all about Scottish music.Cofaidh wrote:And a little leeway should be provided to a former pipe band member I think...
Hard work and experience on the pipes make an excellent entrée into the broader music as there are vestiges of piping's previous other roles in the traditional repertoire. The pipes may be the king of Scottish music but the tradition is more like chess and the fiddle is the queen.
-
flutey1
- Posts: 216
- Joined: Fri Oct 13, 2006 5:32 pm
- Please enter the next number in sequence: 1
- Location: Boston / Cork
- Contact:
I found this article kind of interesting. I hope I'm not violating copyright or anything by posting it, but it's cited...
Celtic Contrast
Two noted bands coming to town illustrate the often overlooked differences between the Scottish and Irish musical traditions
By Scott Alarik, Boston Globe Correspondent
Published March 21, 2003
The music of Ireland and Scotland tends to get tossed into the same Celtic bin. And since most Celtic bands, whether from Ireland, Scotland, or other Celtic-rooted cultures, look much the same -- with an assortment of fiddles, flutes, accordions, guitars, and pipes pumping out jigs, reels, and waltzes -- it can be easy to do.
But Irish and Scottish music are remarkably different. This weekend and next, the sonic distinctions between them will be made clear when two celebrated bands take local stages.
Tonight, sizzling Irish band Lunasa plays the Somerville Theatre, and next Friday the sublime Scottish quintet Old Blind Dogs performs at Lexington's First Baptist Church. Lunasa brings an ornamental glee and jazzlike precision to its jigs and reels, with a blend of traditional reverence and modern savvy that led The Washington Post to dub it ''the Bothy Band meets the Flecktones.''
The Old Blind Dogs' sound is defined by the soft baritone of Jim Malcolm. But when they perform instrumentals, they do so with a muscular drive that is uniquely Scottish.
While both Irish and Scottish music are melodic, Scottish music seems more rhythm-driven. Irish music, on the other hand, is punctuated with trills and grace notes. Lunasa flutist Kevin Crawford says people think Irish music is faster than Scottish, because of the ornamentation. But making room for these trills tends to slow Irish tempos. The result is a dramatic difference in sound. Scottish fiddling is much more bow-driven, giving it a throatier sound. Irish fiddling is defined by ornamentation played by the left hand, resulting in a more intricate style. Crawford describes this as Ireland's ''rolling, flowing'' approach, and says Scottish music is ''more choppy and faster.''
Scottish singer Malcolm, meanwhile, describes the distinction differently. ''The Irish tend to ‘skiddly-diddle’ more than we do,'' even vocally, he says. ''It can take an Irish singer a half-hour just to sing the line, `One morning in May.' ''
Boston fiddler Hanneke Cassel is fluid in both countries' styles. A US Scottish National Fiddle Champion who plays in the band of Irish-American singing star Cathie Ryan, Cassel says the differences may lie in the influence of the bagpipes on Scottish music.
She points out that, while both musics share the sprightly 6/8 jig, 2/4 hornpipe, and 4/4 reel, the Scottish repertoire also has the strathspey, a cousin to the reel, and marches not commonly found in Irish music.
Lunasa's Uilleann piper, Cillian Vallely, explains that his Irish pipes are able to play nearly anything a fiddle or flute can. ''The Uilleann pipes' chanter has a chromatic two-octave scale, so you can play in a lot more keys. The chanter on the Highland pipes, the part that plays the melody, has eight notes, which influences the sound of the music. Because of the number of notes, the tunes tend to be more driving, rhythmic, high-pitched, and forceful.''
The differences in vocal traditions are even more pronounced. In Irish music, the vocal and instrumental repertoires have always been distinct, with singing done primarily a cappella until the 20th century. In Scotland, they have been melded for centuries.
Why? Malcolm has a one-syllable response. ''Burns. Robert Burns is our Shakespeare -- not just our greatest poet, but the genius who codified our culture,'' Malcolm says. ''He took a lot of the fiddle tunes and wrote words to them, as well as writing his own songs, and collecting, rearranging, and preserving 600 traditional songs. That brought the two traditions together.''
Many distinctions were informed by the ways the cultures dealt with the common problem of British colonial domination. Because Scotland largely accepted its colonial status after the 1745 rebellion, British society found its traditions acceptable, even fashionable.
Irish music was more harshly repressed, by both politicians and the Catholic Church, which saw it as innately licentious. The music tended to be played in homes and pubs, away from the ears of authority. The result is that it was much less altered by revisionist influences. About this, Malcolm is clearly envious.
''Irish culture was more of a rebel culture,'' he says, ''where Scottish culture became very kind of trendy. That tended to push Irish traditional music ahead of the Scottish when Ireland became a republic, and Scotland remained in the commonwealth. So Irish culture has had a lot more time to organize itself, regroup, and revive their music on its own terms, which is why I think it is much more advanced around the world. In North America, we always feel like we're in the slipstream of the Irish.'
Celtic Contrast
Two noted bands coming to town illustrate the often overlooked differences between the Scottish and Irish musical traditions
By Scott Alarik, Boston Globe Correspondent
Published March 21, 2003
The music of Ireland and Scotland tends to get tossed into the same Celtic bin. And since most Celtic bands, whether from Ireland, Scotland, or other Celtic-rooted cultures, look much the same -- with an assortment of fiddles, flutes, accordions, guitars, and pipes pumping out jigs, reels, and waltzes -- it can be easy to do.
But Irish and Scottish music are remarkably different. This weekend and next, the sonic distinctions between them will be made clear when two celebrated bands take local stages.
Tonight, sizzling Irish band Lunasa plays the Somerville Theatre, and next Friday the sublime Scottish quintet Old Blind Dogs performs at Lexington's First Baptist Church. Lunasa brings an ornamental glee and jazzlike precision to its jigs and reels, with a blend of traditional reverence and modern savvy that led The Washington Post to dub it ''the Bothy Band meets the Flecktones.''
The Old Blind Dogs' sound is defined by the soft baritone of Jim Malcolm. But when they perform instrumentals, they do so with a muscular drive that is uniquely Scottish.
While both Irish and Scottish music are melodic, Scottish music seems more rhythm-driven. Irish music, on the other hand, is punctuated with trills and grace notes. Lunasa flutist Kevin Crawford says people think Irish music is faster than Scottish, because of the ornamentation. But making room for these trills tends to slow Irish tempos. The result is a dramatic difference in sound. Scottish fiddling is much more bow-driven, giving it a throatier sound. Irish fiddling is defined by ornamentation played by the left hand, resulting in a more intricate style. Crawford describes this as Ireland's ''rolling, flowing'' approach, and says Scottish music is ''more choppy and faster.''
Scottish singer Malcolm, meanwhile, describes the distinction differently. ''The Irish tend to ‘skiddly-diddle’ more than we do,'' even vocally, he says. ''It can take an Irish singer a half-hour just to sing the line, `One morning in May.' ''
Boston fiddler Hanneke Cassel is fluid in both countries' styles. A US Scottish National Fiddle Champion who plays in the band of Irish-American singing star Cathie Ryan, Cassel says the differences may lie in the influence of the bagpipes on Scottish music.
She points out that, while both musics share the sprightly 6/8 jig, 2/4 hornpipe, and 4/4 reel, the Scottish repertoire also has the strathspey, a cousin to the reel, and marches not commonly found in Irish music.
Lunasa's Uilleann piper, Cillian Vallely, explains that his Irish pipes are able to play nearly anything a fiddle or flute can. ''The Uilleann pipes' chanter has a chromatic two-octave scale, so you can play in a lot more keys. The chanter on the Highland pipes, the part that plays the melody, has eight notes, which influences the sound of the music. Because of the number of notes, the tunes tend to be more driving, rhythmic, high-pitched, and forceful.''
The differences in vocal traditions are even more pronounced. In Irish music, the vocal and instrumental repertoires have always been distinct, with singing done primarily a cappella until the 20th century. In Scotland, they have been melded for centuries.
Why? Malcolm has a one-syllable response. ''Burns. Robert Burns is our Shakespeare -- not just our greatest poet, but the genius who codified our culture,'' Malcolm says. ''He took a lot of the fiddle tunes and wrote words to them, as well as writing his own songs, and collecting, rearranging, and preserving 600 traditional songs. That brought the two traditions together.''
Many distinctions were informed by the ways the cultures dealt with the common problem of British colonial domination. Because Scotland largely accepted its colonial status after the 1745 rebellion, British society found its traditions acceptable, even fashionable.
Irish music was more harshly repressed, by both politicians and the Catholic Church, which saw it as innately licentious. The music tended to be played in homes and pubs, away from the ears of authority. The result is that it was much less altered by revisionist influences. About this, Malcolm is clearly envious.
''Irish culture was more of a rebel culture,'' he says, ''where Scottish culture became very kind of trendy. That tended to push Irish traditional music ahead of the Scottish when Ireland became a republic, and Scotland remained in the commonwealth. So Irish culture has had a lot more time to organize itself, regroup, and revive their music on its own terms, which is why I think it is much more advanced around the world. In North America, we always feel like we're in the slipstream of the Irish.'
-
The Sporting Pitchfork
- Posts: 1636
- Joined: Fri Oct 04, 2002 6:00 pm
- antispam: No
- Please enter the next number in sequence: 10
- Location: Dante's "Inferno;" canto VI, line 40
- Contact:
It is a moderately informative and fairly enjoyable to read article, but it over-generalizes a great many things and is the product of people with strong but not necessarily well-researched opinions.
In terms of ornamentation, I think these comments are particularly reflective of the fiddle. Scottish piping uses ornaments that are far more complex than those typically found in uilleann piping and it uses them a whole lot more often (although it doesn't have the facility for "tight" playing like uilleann piping does). Traditional Scottish fiddling, by contrast, does not typically use any rolling, although I imagine most any accomplished Scottish fiddler these days would be well acquainted with rolls from playing Irish tunes.
The rise of a generation of indenpendently-minded, indescribably talented Scottish pipers like Angus, Allan and Iain MacDonald of Glenuig, Fred Morrison, and the late, great Gordon Duncan has irrevocably altered the state of Scottish piping and Scottish music in general. I don't think it can fairly be said anymore that Irish music is "faster" than Scottish music. Gordon Duncan could take tunes at speeds that would've made even Sean McGuire wince. Also the impact of Cape Breton music on young Scottish musicians has been huge--gone are the days of the clompy, almost 12/8-sounding strathspey played with melodramatic gusto. At most Scottish sessions these days, all the strathspeys (and many of the reels) you would hear would be played in the Cape Breton style (although some Scottish musicians would be more inclined to call it the "old Scottish" or "sean-nos" style).
One other thing to note is that there is HUGE historical overlap in the repertoire going back...well, a long, long way. There were plenty of cases of harpers and pipers going back and forth between the two countries. More recently, the "Golden Age of Scottish Fiddling" in the late 18th Century meant that a whole gaggle of Scottish tunes got widely published. These tune collections wound up in the hands of well-to-do landed-gentry-type musicians in Ireland and then got passed on to musically illiterate musicians who adapted the tunes into their respective local oral traditions. A Scottish musician could argue that all the best Irish reels are actually Scottish...and just about be right. An Irish musician could of course respond that the Irish improved on them, though.
In terms of ornamentation, I think these comments are particularly reflective of the fiddle. Scottish piping uses ornaments that are far more complex than those typically found in uilleann piping and it uses them a whole lot more often (although it doesn't have the facility for "tight" playing like uilleann piping does). Traditional Scottish fiddling, by contrast, does not typically use any rolling, although I imagine most any accomplished Scottish fiddler these days would be well acquainted with rolls from playing Irish tunes.
The rise of a generation of indenpendently-minded, indescribably talented Scottish pipers like Angus, Allan and Iain MacDonald of Glenuig, Fred Morrison, and the late, great Gordon Duncan has irrevocably altered the state of Scottish piping and Scottish music in general. I don't think it can fairly be said anymore that Irish music is "faster" than Scottish music. Gordon Duncan could take tunes at speeds that would've made even Sean McGuire wince. Also the impact of Cape Breton music on young Scottish musicians has been huge--gone are the days of the clompy, almost 12/8-sounding strathspey played with melodramatic gusto. At most Scottish sessions these days, all the strathspeys (and many of the reels) you would hear would be played in the Cape Breton style (although some Scottish musicians would be more inclined to call it the "old Scottish" or "sean-nos" style).
One other thing to note is that there is HUGE historical overlap in the repertoire going back...well, a long, long way. There were plenty of cases of harpers and pipers going back and forth between the two countries. More recently, the "Golden Age of Scottish Fiddling" in the late 18th Century meant that a whole gaggle of Scottish tunes got widely published. These tune collections wound up in the hands of well-to-do landed-gentry-type musicians in Ireland and then got passed on to musically illiterate musicians who adapted the tunes into their respective local oral traditions. A Scottish musician could argue that all the best Irish reels are actually Scottish...and just about be right. An Irish musician could of course respond that the Irish improved on them, though.
-
AaronMalcomb
- Posts: 2205
- Joined: Sat May 25, 2002 6:00 pm
- antispam: No
- Location: Bellingham, WA
Excellent points, Sporting P-Fork. As a piper I agree with a lot of your comments. The GHB has always been rather separate from Scottish music just because of the power of the instrument and its role in Highland culture. It became even more separate over the last 100 years or so, its playing becoming more of an obscure 'art music'. People point to the military which was a major benefactor of piping, the competition scene which became the popular venue for performance and to various other 'tradition-bearers' like the Piobaireachd Society as major influences on the direction of the GHB's development.
I don't think it's totally a bad thing. I enjoy competing and appreciate competition style music. Listening to a top-level competitor play a big March/Strathspey/Reel set is a pleasure. Among all of the somewhat confabulated, technical ornamenting there is tremendous room for expression and without that expression it sounds like a mash of gracenotes (compounding the challenge). I'm actually more of a fan of this music than a lot of the contemporary GHB tunes.
I also enjoy playing and listening to the revitalized sean-nòs style, especially on border pipes because they are so enemble friendly. I have piper friends who are justifiably sceptical of all of this 'neo-traditional' piping because no matter how many M.Litt. theses and examples of cultural evidence you cite, the reality is that this is not what pipers have been doing for several generations even if they did possibly at some point in history.
But the sean-nòs nuadh music speaks for itself. It has a drive and vitality that is pleasurable to hear and play and it acts as a nexus for tying many cultural traditions together that might fade even further on their own.
That's my own little diatribe anyways.
I don't think it's totally a bad thing. I enjoy competing and appreciate competition style music. Listening to a top-level competitor play a big March/Strathspey/Reel set is a pleasure. Among all of the somewhat confabulated, technical ornamenting there is tremendous room for expression and without that expression it sounds like a mash of gracenotes (compounding the challenge). I'm actually more of a fan of this music than a lot of the contemporary GHB tunes.
I also enjoy playing and listening to the revitalized sean-nòs style, especially on border pipes because they are so enemble friendly. I have piper friends who are justifiably sceptical of all of this 'neo-traditional' piping because no matter how many M.Litt. theses and examples of cultural evidence you cite, the reality is that this is not what pipers have been doing for several generations even if they did possibly at some point in history.
But the sean-nòs nuadh music speaks for itself. It has a drive and vitality that is pleasurable to hear and play and it acts as a nexus for tying many cultural traditions together that might fade even further on their own.
That's my own little diatribe anyways.
-
Coffee
- Posts: 1699
- Joined: Fri Aug 25, 2006 5:41 pm
- antispam: No
- Please enter the next number in sequence: 8
- Location: Anchorage, AK
Well, since the topic has been broached, can anyone reccomend a good book or twa of Scottish trad. music that isn't scored for pipes? I can't play a taurluath on a flute very well. And really, most of what I played in pipe band were marches.
"Yes... yes. This is a fertile land, and we will thrive. We will rule over all this land, and we will call it... This Land."
-
kenny
- Posts: 1633
- Joined: Sat Oct 30, 2004 7:50 am
- Please enter the next number in sequence: 1
- Location: Aberdeen, Scotland
The only books I would recommend are Christine Martin's "Ceol Na Fidhle" series [ not sure about spelling there ]. There are a lot of pipe-tunes in them, some of the best. I wouldn't shy away from them. Your flute will have the 9 notes needed to play any pipe-tune.
"There's fast music and there's lively music. People don't always know the difference"
-
AaronMalcomb
- Posts: 2205
- Joined: Sat May 25, 2002 6:00 pm
- antispam: No
- Location: Bellingham, WA
The Lowland and Border Pipers Society has a few tune books that leave out pipe ornamentation (My server is disagreeing with theirs otherwise I'd give you a more direct link).
Here's a few collections of Scottish tunes in ABC including a flute friendly rendering of Simon Fraser's collection.
Taigh na Teud has several old collections in their catalogue. I'd recommend the Patrick McDonald Collection. Ceol na Fidhle is available there too and Ho-ro-gheallaidh is another good collection.
Here's a few collections of Scottish tunes in ABC including a flute friendly rendering of Simon Fraser's collection.
Taigh na Teud has several old collections in their catalogue. I'd recommend the Patrick McDonald Collection. Ceol na Fidhle is available there too and Ho-ro-gheallaidh is another good collection.
-
BrendanB
- Posts: 242
- Joined: Sat Jul 05, 2003 3:56 pm
- Please enter the next number in sequence: 1
- Location: Washington DC
yeah, it's kind of hard, although a short cran isn't that far off. it's funny, i actually find myself throwing in the occasional d-throw or grip on the flute. guess it's the last vestige of when i used to play the pipes. it's kind of a cool effect on the flute though.Cofaidh wrote:I can't play a taurluath on a flute very well.
b
-
WyoBadger
- Posts: 2708
- Joined: Wed Jun 27, 2001 6:00 pm
- antispam: No
- Please enter the next number in sequence: 8
- Tell us something.: "Tell us something" hits me a bit like someone asking me to tell a joke. I can always think of a hundred of them until someone asks me for one. You know how it is. Right now, I can't think of "something" to tell you. But I have to use at least 100 characters to inform you of that.
- Location: Wyoming
Interesting thread(s). A couple other things I've noticed:
Scottish tunes tend much more toward the mixolydian mode (basically a major scale with a lowered 7th; G to G on the D whistle), which, to my ear, lends a great deal of drama and a sort of melodic drive to even slow tunes. I very rarely notice this mode in Irtrad. It could be that this mode is so common because it reflects the tuning of the highland pipes. Or perhaps the highland pipes are tuned that way because so many tunes are in that mode...chicken or the egg.
(aside: because of the above tuning, when playing whistle with a highland piper use an Eb whistle--and a cranked up microphone--and play the tunes mixolydian. No charge for that bit of info)
Much more subjectively, I've also noticed that Irish tunes tend to be more "smooth" and Scottish tunes more "jagged" in their melodic contours. Again, as so many others have said, there are no hard rules. But I believe that's why Irish music has caught on so much more in the States--the melodies are a bit friendlier to the ear of someone steeped in the western european/U.S. classical, jazz, and pop styles. Scottish trad music, as a whole, is more of an aquired taste.
Personally I prefer Scottish--much of it has an intensity of melody and rhythm I don't get from most Irish trad.
Much has been said about the "rigidity" of Scottish trad. I've read several places that this is almost entirely a result of the whole pipes culture being co-opted by the Brittish military. Before that, pipes, while still a military instrument, were much freer and more in touch with folk music. Since many of the earliest Scots emigrants went to Cape Bretton early on in the clearances, they took the old school piping with them. That's why the Cape Breton style is arguably considered the more "old fashioned" nowadays.
Tom
Scottish tunes tend much more toward the mixolydian mode (basically a major scale with a lowered 7th; G to G on the D whistle), which, to my ear, lends a great deal of drama and a sort of melodic drive to even slow tunes. I very rarely notice this mode in Irtrad. It could be that this mode is so common because it reflects the tuning of the highland pipes. Or perhaps the highland pipes are tuned that way because so many tunes are in that mode...chicken or the egg.
(aside: because of the above tuning, when playing whistle with a highland piper use an Eb whistle--and a cranked up microphone--and play the tunes mixolydian. No charge for that bit of info)
Much more subjectively, I've also noticed that Irish tunes tend to be more "smooth" and Scottish tunes more "jagged" in their melodic contours. Again, as so many others have said, there are no hard rules. But I believe that's why Irish music has caught on so much more in the States--the melodies are a bit friendlier to the ear of someone steeped in the western european/U.S. classical, jazz, and pop styles. Scottish trad music, as a whole, is more of an aquired taste.
Personally I prefer Scottish--much of it has an intensity of melody and rhythm I don't get from most Irish trad.
Much has been said about the "rigidity" of Scottish trad. I've read several places that this is almost entirely a result of the whole pipes culture being co-opted by the Brittish military. Before that, pipes, while still a military instrument, were much freer and more in touch with folk music. Since many of the earliest Scots emigrants went to Cape Bretton early on in the clearances, they took the old school piping with them. That's why the Cape Breton style is arguably considered the more "old fashioned" nowadays.
Tom
Fall down six times. Stand up seven.
-
BrendanB
- Posts: 242
- Joined: Sat Jul 05, 2003 3:56 pm
- Please enter the next number in sequence: 1
- Location: Washington DC
It's actually a pretty common mode in the irish tradition as well. There a bunch of tunes in mixolydian. Lots of the big piping jigs are in D mix, there are plenty of reels, such as the Connaught Heifers, Within a Mile of Dublin, etc. that are in D mix too.WyoBadger wrote:Scottish tunes tend much more toward the mixolydian mode (basically a major scale with a lowered 7th; G to G on the D whistle), which, to my ear, lends a great deal of drama and a sort of melodic drive to even slow tunes. I very rarely notice this mode in Irtrad.
b
-
TheSpoonMan
- Posts: 695
- Joined: Tue May 16, 2006 6:09 pm
- Please enter the next number in sequence: 1
- Location: Chicago
- Contact:
