embouchure cuts

[tin tin]

Perusing Rick Wilson's excellent "Old Flutes" website, I made the surprising (to me) discovery that rectangular embouchure cuts were in use as early as 1820. Yet when makers such as Noy or Abell or McGee refer to the rectangular cuts they offer, the word "modern" is usually employed.
http://www.oldflutes.com/viennese.html
(Scroll down about 1/3 of the way down for close-up photos.)

It seems to me that most modern makers of "Irish" flutes are not making slavish reproductions of 19th century English models, and yet it seems that embouchure cuts (and keywork, too) do tend to be conservative--in keeping with the "Nicholson-style" flute.
Why is this? Are makers more adventurous about exploring bore dimensions and tuning than embouchure cuts? Or has today's eliptical cut evolved from the one found on 19th c. flute? Or is the eliptical cut somehow superior in the context of Irish music?

[chas]

Perusing Rick Wilson's excellent "Old Flutes" website, I made the surprising (to me) discovery that rectangular embouchure cuts were in use as early as 1820. Yet when makers such as Noy or Abell or McGee refer to the rectangular cuts they offer, the word "modern" is usually employed.
http://www.oldflutes.com/viennese.html
(Scroll down about 1/3 of the way down for close-up photos.)

It seems to me that most modern makers of "Irish" flutes are not making slavish reproductions of 19th century English models, and yet it seems that embouchure cuts (and keywork, too) do tend to be conservative--in keeping with the "Nicholson-style" flute.
Why is this? Are makers more adventurous about exploring bore dimensions and tuning than embouchure cuts? Or has today's eliptical cut evolved from the one found on 19th c. flute? Or is the eliptical cut somehow superior in the context of Irish music?

I tried out Peter Noy's modern cut and Rudall cut. The modern cut is definitely more powerful and possibly easier in the third octave. But my wife (a lifelong Boehm flute player) and I both greatly preferred the sound of the Rudall cut. I think the modern cut is definitely better suited to the modern flute, while the old-fashioned cut is better suited to the old-fashioned flute.

[Jon C.]

Perusing Rick Wilson's excellent "Old Flutes" website, I made the surprising (to me) discovery that rectangular embouchure cuts were in use as early as 1820. Yet when makers such as Noy or Abell or McGee refer to the rectangular cuts they offer, the word "modern" is usually employed.
http://www.oldflutes.com/viennese.html
(Scroll down about 1/3 of the way down for close-up photos.)

It seems to me that most modern makers of "Irish" flutes are not making slavish reproductions of 19th century English models, and yet it seems that embouchure cuts (and keywork, too) do tend to be conservative--in keeping with the "Nicholson-style" flute.
Why is this? Are makers more adventurous about exploring bore dimensions and tuning than embouchure cuts? Or has today's eliptical cut evolved from the one found on 19th c. flute? Or is the eliptical cut somehow superior in the context of Irish music?

I tried out Peter Noy's modern cut and Rudall cut. The modern cut is definitely more powerful and possibly easier in the third octave. But my wife (a lifelong Boehm flute player) and I both greatly preferred the sound of the Rudall cut. I think the modern cut is definitely better suited to the modern flute, while the old-fashioned cut is better suited to the old-fashioned flute.

Hi,
I think the Germans started the square cut emb. hole. My original Meyers has a cut like this. That is probably why Boehm adopted it for his flutes. The blowing edge is longer then traditional Emb hole, the English had, thus , a bigger sweet spot. Nickolson liked the large eliptical (12.7x10.6mm)versus the R&R had oval and a rounded oval (11.7x10.6mm). I think that the square emb. hole is easier to play, especially if the player has a looser emb. style. I have found, at least with my own playing that the square emb tended to be kind of a washed out tone. But if you want to be heard in a crowded session, then the square Emb hole might be for you.

[Terry McGee]

I use the expression "modern" as people are more accustomed to seeing them on modern (Boehm) flutes. But they certainly go back a long time - I have an old German flute here that I'd guess was from around the 1820's - it has a small but very squared embouchure. Boehm used the rectangular hole on his 1832 ring-keyed conical, but when Rudall & Rose took up making that instrument in 1843, they reverted to the elliptical hole they used on their 8-key flutes. Ward tried it again in 1847, but his instrument was a commercial failure (for a number of reasons). As far as I know, English flute makers then stuck with elliptical holes until the 2nd half 20th century, while French and other makers had switched entirely to rectangular holes much earlier.

So in terms of the modern Irish flute, yes, the typical elliptical hole is a copy of what the 19th century English makers used. And the typical modern metal flute uses the "rounded rectangle" approach. Is it odd that we have this complete opposition? - yes of course it is. So you can see it was inevitable that some modern Irish flute makers would try the rectangle.

Now for me, it was a stunning revelation. I couldn't believe how much easier the flute was to play. So I started doing them on all my flutes. Didn't take long before I discovered that not everyone likes them as much as I do. I did a little survey at a National Folk Festival a few years back. I brought along three heads with three differing embouchures - my rounded rectangles, an elliptical and one about halfway between, that I call my Two Semicircles type. I also brought along my universal test barrel, which enabled anyone to fit any of the heads to their own flute (thus eliminating the rest of my flute from the equation). I shamelessly poked them under the nose of every flute player I could find, asking them which they preferred. Needless to say, they could also compare my heads with their own flute head.

Most players didn't find much difference - "they're all good" - and certainly, as a listener, I could tell little or no difference. But for some players, one really stood out, and it could be the elliptical or the rectangle. And I of course was simply one of those players for whom the rectangle worked best.

Now, some have criticised the modern (rectangular) embouchure as being too open, but I think this is to confuse the hole itself with the approach to the hole. If you play it with the approach used by modern metal flute players, covering little of the hole, having it in line with the finger holes and aiming at the "edge", you will certainly get an open modern-flute sound. But, just like the elliptical, you can cover a lot of it, turn it in toward you and blow for the centre of the flute, not the edge, and be rewarded by a powerful, hard-edged, tight tone. The difference, for players like me, is that you get a whole lot better tone than I can get out of an elliptical. Boehm commented on the same thing in a letter to Broadwood - "I could never do well with an elliptical hole".

Now, before someone says, I'm just being lazy, let me say I have since spent a lot of time trying to switch back to the elliptical, to see if I can obtain any better results with it over the rectangular. I've given that up now, and after 36 years of flute playing and 32 of making, I think I'm entitled to know what works for me!

And why don't all the other makers offer a choice of embouchures? I'd imagine that's easily answered. If they are in the majority group where they didn't notice much difference, why would they bother? Indeed, what would guide them in developing one? And if they were in the group that much preferred the elliptical, the rectangle might be positively repulsive!

So, after much sober reflection, well, reflection at least, my advice to players is this. If you have no trouble blowing the flute with the traditional elliptical embouchure, then you probably have no strong reason to try anything else. But if, after a reasonable period of trying, you find you still run out of breath, or can't find a tone that satisfies you, or take a long time at a session before you hit form, or tire easily and your tone or power suffers, then I reckon you owe it to yourself to try a rectangular embouchure. Testing that could be as easy as going to your local music shop and blowing a few notes on a nice new Yamaha. If you find it easier to get a good tone on that, seek out a conical with rectangular embouchure and put it to a serious test.

And so, what of the intermediate, Two Semicircles type? I recommend that for people who don't really know what type they need. Lying between the two extremes, it has to be more likely to work well than either of the extremes. Certainly no-one in the test group found it bothersome.

Terry

[I.D.10-t]

So is there nothing to recommend the baroque/renaissance round flute embouchure (other than perhaps ease of manufacture)?

[Jon C.]

So is there nothing to recommend the baroque/renaissance round flute embouchure (other than perhaps ease of manufacture)?

well... Hmmmm... ummmm... (still thinking) hmmm.. I can't think of anything!
Well maybe for baroque music.
The rounded oval is similar to the R&R ones I have seen like I spoke of earlier, is similar to the round Emb. hole. It requires a tight emb. and a lot more focus.

Good points Terry. Funny I went to the square Emb. hole on my traveling flute to the Nether regions, everyone told me they wanted the traditional oval. Then when I sent the next one to Ireland, they said they would rather have the more open easy emb hole! So go figure...

[monkey587]

So is there nothing to recommend the baroque/renaissance round flute embouchure (other than perhaps ease of manufacture)?

I have played baroque flutes by Daniel Deitch with tiny finger holes and tiny round embouchure holes, and they sound quite big. His Carlo Palanca model sounds more like an irish flute than my german flute. I also have two headjoints by Jon C for that flute, one elliptical and one "modern." The latter is easier to play but I like the sound of the other better. Maybe someone should design a flute head where the wood and the metal lining rotate independently, so different embouchures can be rotated into place.

[Jon C.]

So is there nothing to recommend the baroque/renaissance round flute embouchure (other than perhaps ease of manufacture)?

I have played baroque flutes by Daniel Deitch with tiny finger holes and tiny round embouchure holes, and they sound quite big. His Carlo Palanca model sounds more like an irish flute than my german flute. I also have two headjoints by Jon C for that flute, one elliptical and one "modern." The latter is easier to play but I like the sound of the other better. Maybe someone should design a flute head where the wood and the metal lining rotate independently, so different embouchures can be rotated into place.

Cool idea! have the emb. hole click in place! And then if you coould also incorperate the patent head design, that adjusts the cork stopper and the tuning slide, click in the desired Emb. hole, and away you go! (It would probably weigh a ton!)
Well Terry, when you finish getting your shop set up, and the cabinets for the kitchen, might be a good project...

[Terry McGee]

Too late to be first, Jon. Like most things (Prof) Neville Fletcher has beaten us to it. I have on my desk a fitted box containing 3 metal flute heads: one standard Boehm taper, one straight cylinder and one with an extreme taper. As well there are four perspex embouchure tubes that slide onto these heads; and each tube carries three embouchure holes which can be rotated to come over the hole in the head. There are a set of circular holes of varying size, and a set of rectangular holes of vaying size, as well as a second set of each with greater undercutting.

So by swapping stuff about you can try various sizes of round or rectangular holes with vaying degrees of undercutting on heads with varying degrees of tapers.

Neville chose rectangular and round for modern flutes and baroque - Irish flute was still pretty rare when he had these made.

And yes, on the travelling flute thing, I also found that Europe seems to generally prefer elliptical, and yet I've sold a number of rectangular embouchures to players in Ireland who were much relieved to find something that suited them better. So it's definitely not the case that all Irish Irish-flute players prefer elliptical. And since some of these were my Grey Larsen Preferred model, it's no longer true to say all Irish Irish-flute players prefer large holes. It all comes back to finding the flute for you.

Terry

[Sillydill]

The following is a picture of the head of my Mollenhauer flute (Viennese), which certainly appears to have a modern embouchure, dispite being ~150 years old. This embouchure is 10.8 mm x 9.6 mm.



The next picture is of the head off of a Lausmann (Litz, still Austria), note this embouchure is quite "square" and is also about 150 years old :



I for one don't mind most "smaller circular" emboucures. But I think the Rudallesque oval is about optimal, for me. The Mollenhauer's is about the most modern embouchure that I still like.

My preferrence in flute embouchures is based upon tonal qualities, not power.

All the Best!

Jordan

[Doug_Tipple]

I think that I have mentioned this idea before, but I am old enough to have the liberty of repeating myself. My idea is to have a round hole in the headjoint which is a little larger than the actual embouchure hole The hole would have a bench at the top that would stop a circular plug inserted into the larger round hole. The actual embouchure holes (of various designs) would be fashioned in the plugs that would be inserted into the larger round hole. Of course, it would be necessary that the plugs fit snuggy in the headjoint so that there was no leaking. These plugs would need to be made from a strong, non-wood material, such as delrin or metal. With modern computer assisted design, it seems that the manufacture of such embouchure plugs is a realistic possibility.

An added psssible advantage to such an embouchure plug is that that the embouchure could be rotated slightly. Embouchure holes are traditionally fashioned with the axis perpendicular to the length of the flute, but most players hold the flute at an angle from the body so that they are required to turn their heads in order to blow into the sweet spot of the embouchure. I'm not sure what the slight rotation of the embouchure would do to the physics of sound production in a flute, but the idea of holding the flute at a comfortable angle and at the same time holding the head in a straight position is appealing to me. There would be a lot less tension in the neck if this were possible.

Even if the idea of rotating the embouchure plug is not an acoustically sound idea, the idea that one headjoint could accomodate a variety of embouchure styles is an attractive design idea. I recently purchased a Leroy lettering set, which for many years was used for engineering drafting. The Leroy pen holder will accommodate many different pen sizes. You merely take one pen size out and place another one in the pen holder. I visualize a similar situation with a variety of embouchure designs for a flute. Of course, even though this is easy to visualize in theory, it would be harder to effect in practice, especially for the current limited market for simple system flutes.

[toughknot]

I have a grey 2 piece Tipple with a rectangular embouchure (did it myself ). I also cutaway in front of and behind the embouchure. After a period of adjustment I now like it very much. Can still be played fairly softly but it can now also be played quite loudly. I rotate the head in and cover part of the hole with the lip. Big sound, I like it. Easier to play.
There was nothing wrong with the flute to start with,I just had a strong urge to tinker and a work bench full of sharp carving tools in reach.
I call it my Tipple Pratten.

[Jon C.]

Too late to be first, Jon. Like most things (Prof) Neville Fletcher has beaten us to it. I have on my desk a fitted box containing 3 metal flute heads: one standard Boehm taper, one straight cylinder and one with an extreme taper. As well there are four perspex embouchure tubes that slide onto these heads; and each tube carries three embouchure holes which can be rotated to come over the hole in the head. There are a set of circular holes of varying size, and a set of rectangular holes of vaying size, as well as a second set of each with greater undercutting.

So by swapping stuff about you can try various sizes of round or rectangular holes with vaying degrees of undercutting on heads with varying degrees of tapers.

Neville chose rectangular and round for modern flutes and baroque - Irish flute was still pretty rare when he had these made.

Well you got me there, but you still have to finish making those cabinets!:D

And yes, on the travelling flute thing, I also found that Europe seems to generally prefer elliptical, and yet I've sold a number of rectangular embouchures to players in Ireland who were much relieved to find something that suited them better. So it's definitely not the case that all Irish Irish-flute players prefer elliptical. And since some of these were my Grey Larsen Preferred model, it's no longer true to say all Irish Irish-flute players prefer large holes. It all comes back to finding the flute for you.

Terry

Got that right!

[kkrell]

Duplicate post.

[kkrell]

Too late to be first, Jon. Like most things (Prof) Neville Fletcher has beaten us to it. I have on my desk a fitted box containing 3 metal flute heads: one standard Boehm taper, one straight cylinder and one with an extreme taper. As well there are four perspex embouchure tubes that slide onto these heads; and each tube carries three embouchure holes which can be rotated to come over the hole in the head. There are a set of circular holes of varying size, and a set of rectangular holes of vaying size, as well as a second set of each with greater undercutting.

So by swapping stuff about you can try various sizes of round or rectangular holes with vaying degrees of undercutting on heads with varying degrees of tapers.

Neville chose rectangular and round for modern flutes and baroque - Irish flute was still pretty rare when he had these made.

And yes, on the travelling flute thing, I also found that Europe seems to generally prefer elliptical, and yet I've sold a number of rectangular embouchures to players in Ireland who were much relieved to find something that suited them better. So it's definitely not the case that all Irish Irish-flute players prefer elliptical. And since some of these were my Grey Larsen Preferred model, it's no longer true to say all Irish Irish-flute players prefer large holes. It all comes back to finding the flute for you.

Terry

How about just having an embouchure insert into a standard hole, similar to the silver rings around finger holes (and embouchure in the example), as in your photo http://www.mcgee-flutes.com/images/Pask_Valenza.jpg
Just snap in an embouchure profile, and pop out to change. I bet either silver, Delrin, or various other materials could be hardy enough - just provide a protective removal/insertion tool, so that the edges don't get bunged up.

Speaking of which, how can I reach Helen for possible permission to use flute photos for WFO4?

Kevin Krell