pipers grip vs. normal

[cadancer]

hi guys, i read that the normal grip is better than the pipers grip. i started playing low whistle first, so naturally i have the pipers grip for playing flute. is that bad? i just cant do normal grip, it is too hard on my hands.

I have never played low whistle, but needed to use a "pipers grip" when playing Kaval (Bulgarian Shepherd's flute). I spent a long time trying to reconcile how to hold an "Irish" flute. I made the decision to stick with a keyless flute, so my choices revolve around that. Other choices would have been necessary if I had chosen to play a flute with keys.

Bottom line is that my right hand utilizes a "piper's grip" and my left hand utilizes a "standard" transverse flute hold. I could not manage to get my left hand into a piper's position with the flute held out to the side. ( now, I am talking about having L1 and L2 covering the top two holes with the second joints and L3 with the 1st joint, which is how I hold the kaval).

But, WC... I could only hold the instrument for a little while at a time, because it was very painful to hold it that way. I didn't push it and eventually *all* of the pain went away (combination of relaxing, and ??). I just did not try and practice for long periods of time in the beginning.

I hold my high D whistle with a piper's grip. L1,L2 second joint, L3 first joint. R1, R2, R3, second joint (kavals have a R4 and that would be with the first joint of the pinky). This technique is definately unorthodox, but is comfortable due to many years of playing kaval. (I have seen people whose main instrument is the pipes use t his type of grip on a high whistle)

The issue as yet undecided is whether it is more efficient to play with curved fingers (necessary for the Rockstro grip), or flatter fingers (necessary for the piper's grip).

The "piper's grip" that I use for the kaval is very similar to what this Bulgarian Bagpipe player is using. Note that his fingers are curved in a way that more closely resembles hands at rest than most people's left hand while utilizing the "standard" way of holding a transverse flute.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2Kli_4cXEi4

At about 5 seconds into this next video, there is a kaval player who is playing with the "standard" kaval grip. Both hands have fairly straight wrists and relaxed fingers.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Myjc51zxtIY

my top, L hand is more an adaptation of L hand flute hold - my hand is slightly "ducked" and L1 and " are arched to cover the holes with their pads while L3 reaches in fairly straightened, all at a c45 degree angle to the tube, just like for flute, save that the L1 doesn't press its side against the tube. I find this very comfortable and secure.

I knew a kaval player that held his left (top) hand similar to the way you hold a low whistle. It worked for him. I think it puts more strain on the wrist than does a regular piper's (Gaida) or kaval-style grip. It also makes it very difficult to use you fingers to glissando and vibrato the way it would be done on a kaval. In my opinion, the piper's grip would ultimately put less strain on your left hand and wrist, but would be very uncomfortable for a while. You have an investment in a "standard" left hand grip for a transverse flute and it probably makes the instrument (low whistle) easier for you to play than would a piper's grip.

If I were making suggestions to a beginning low whistle player who did not play transverse flute, I would not suggest the way you hold your left hand. I might suggest it to someone who's main instrument is flute and is trying to learn to play low whistle.

...john

[Rob Sharer]

Good lord! I go to a party for a few hours......look how much virtual ink has been spilled in my absence!

Contexts, optimums, and meretricious thingummies aside, the essence of the matter has indeed been distilled here - tension is the enemy, no matter what grip you use. The Larsens and Jems of the world who have it that there's something intrinsically wrong with the piper's or Irish holds are doing a disservice to less-experienced players by trying to prejudice them against experimenting. Why waste so many keystrokes trying to argue for the closed mind?

There are players whose LH standard grip is tense and awful, and players who have lovely relaxed LHs when using an alternate hold. Trying to argue that using one or the other necessarily is going to cause tension or other issues is going looking for problems. Keep an open mind! Try everything! Just avoid tension.

I find my Irish LH hold to be so relaxed, so freeing when compared to how I play using the Rockstro grip. There's nothing intrinsically wrong with it.

Rob

[Rob Sharer]

....and no, Jim, I don't forgive the pedantry. Some sins are unforgivable. You're not the only one that went to Junior College, you know. Cheers,

Rob

[jim stone]

Oh well, to err is human. I agree that there is nothing
intrinsically wrong with piper's grip. Three cheers
for an open mind!

[CranberryDog]

Here's Terry McGee's take on how to hold a flute (from his web site).
"Hold the flute with the first three fingers of your left hand covering the three holes in the middle joint. Cover the bottom three holes with the first three fingers of the right hand. Use the pads of your fingers, not the tips, to cover the holes - your fingers should be flat on the instrument. Don't squeeze hard - a light grip should be adequate.

Bring the embouchure hole up to your lips with your left elbow close to your chest. The lowest joint of your left-hand first finger should press against the front of the flute to support it. Your thumbs should be holding the flute from below somewhere between the first and second fingers. You should be able to let go the right hand and still hold the flute against your lip.

Left-handed people might be tempted to reverse the above instructions. This is not a good idea. Both hands work equally hard on the flute, so there is no advantage to be gained. Further, if you decide later to get a flute with keys, you will be at a serious disadvantage as the keys only work one way.

You should sit or stand upright, with the flute horizontal or drooping just a little. Do not support the top end of the flute on your left shoulder and do not stick your left elbow out. Keep your neck straight. All of this keeps the breathing passages clear and prevents tiredness and soreness developing in the neck and arms.

When raising fingers from holes, do not raise them too far and try to raise them all a similar amount. This enables you to play faster and more evenly. Practicing in front of a mirror helps to get all these things right." This is my approach. Works for me. Cheers, Cyril.

[jemtheflute]

The Larsens and Jems of the world who have it that there's something intrinsically wrong with the piper's or Irish holds are doing a disservice to less-experienced players by trying to prejudice them against experimenting. Why waste so many keystrokes trying to argue for the closed mind? Rob

I thought I had made it quite clear that I do NOT think that using one of the variants of so-called "piper's grip" is "wrong". I am happy for Rob that he is comfortable and secure and can achieve all the dexterity of fingering he wishes with his particular version of it, and I wouldn't try to convert him from it. I do not have a closed mind or a prejudiced view of the matter, just a practical one. I don't mind anyone playing with a non-orthodox hold if they are happy/comfortable and achieving their objectives, but I do look at some of them and see how they are indeed limiting/handicapping/paining themselves in ways that could be ameliorated, just as, as Rob quite rightly says, some (would be) users of "normal" hold have difficulties or deficiencies with it that can be addressed. I don't consistently do it properly myself, but I do notice (the disadvantages) when I'm not. And I don't think I have wasted any keystrokes in this thread in trying to offer what the thread initiator asked for, save perhaps on Rob??????? I DO persist with the gist of my last post.

Flutefry made some very sensible comments. Certainly, the key point about the "normal/standard/classical/Rockstro" hold is that, executed properly, for people whose physiology, especially of their hands, falls within the "normal" range and who have "normal" range flexibility, that hold demonstrably (statistically, historically, anatomically, mechanically) offers the best security for the instrument combined with the best dexterity of the fingers with the least risk of unhelpful or injurious tension in hands, arms, neck or breathing. "Optimal" does indeed "default" to "the method that offers the best to the greatest number" - indeed, do try it first, or second, or umpty-dumpth, but at least try it, and get guidance on doing it properly. That is not to deny that for some people other methods may be entirely satisfactory, to themselves at least, nor that they may have something useful to offer in the context of this thread.

Can I be more open-minded than that? I'm not going to change my own preference for my own use, nor what I personally advise others to try to do, unless I see evidence to convince me otherwise, and I've seen none yet, but I have learnt some new things from this thread.

Re: the Grey Larsen argument that others have been pursuing here, I haven't seen or read his book (would like to), hence haven't commented, and I have never seriously tried to play with "piper's hold" on flute myself because I can't (so I recognise anyone else's problems in trying to switch from whatever they may be accustomed to) - I'm too used to my orthodox(ish) hold and when I do try it, "piper's" feels too insecure to me as well as demanding (for me) awkward arm posture, plus I want to be able to use all my keys. But I don't therefore dismiss it out of hand as it seems from your reports that Grey does.

I do not believe I have actually or implicitly criticised anyone for using "piper's". I have identified what I perceive empirically to be its disadvantages, but have equally acknowledged that there are many fine players using it for whom those disavantages do not upset their achievements, and/or who find positive advantages in it. Fair enough? I'd mention/explain its existence to a pupil or advice seeker, but I still wouldn't teach it. If I had a pupil who insisted on using it, or who had a physiological problem that made a version of it necessary, I would help them to optimise it according to the same general principles. I wouldn't refuse to teach/help them or overbearingly insist that they change to "normal" hold, but clearly my ability to advise from personal experience would be much less!

[jemtheflute]

I think it puts more strain on the wrist than does a regular piper's (Gaida) or kaval-style grip. It also makes it very difficult to use you fingers to glissando and vibrato the way it would be done on a kaval. In my opinion, the piper's grip would ultimately put less strain on your left hand and wrist, but would be very uncomfortable for a while. You have an investment in a "standard" left hand grip for a transverse flute and it probably makes the instrument (low whistle) easier for you to play than would a piper's grip....john

Thanks for that, John, some fascinating stuff! I know very little about Kaval beyond its existence. Always learning!

I can honestly say that there is absolutely no strain on my L wrist in the way I hold low whistles, nor do have any trouble glissing off holes, trilling or using finger vibrato with that hand (as ITM uses such things), but I obviously don't know about Kaval technique.

More to the point, I think, in terms of offering advice to others, is that I might well advise someone to use full "piper's hold" on low whistle specifically if they were having problems sealing the large tone-holes. I am fortunate (for concert flute and low whistle purposes) in having blunt, not much tapered fingers with broad and well fleshed pads on my top finger joints, so large holes are rarely a problem for me. I know many people (and have taught or advised some) who have much narrower, more tapered fingers which just "fall in" to large tone holes. Such people have little choice but to cover the holes with the broader second joint pads. On low whistle, for folk with average range physiques, this does not cause any postural problems with the wrists etc. as it can do on flute.
Incidentally, unlike on flute, I can fairly readily switch to a L hand "piper's hold" on low whistle and play OK - probably because the support of the instrument doesn't really come into it, as has been said - but I prefer not to as I find the L hand position I pictured works better for me, probably for the reason of familiarity that John surmises.

My wide fingers become a disadvantage, however, on smaller, high pitched instruments. I can just about play a Generation high F, but not a high G - my fingers bang/wedge together, or I miss the holes. I cannot play a Boehm system piccolo for the same reason, though I am OK on simple system ones. Pros and cons, horses for courses!

[cadancer]

Thanks for that, John, some fascinating stuff! I know very little about Kaval beyond its existence. Always learning!

You are welcome. If you want to hear the kaval version of chiff, check this out:

http://www.kaval.dir.bg/en/music.html

If you can ignore the silly orchestral accompanyment, the Trakijski Chapraz starts out in "kaba" which is the 1st register plus some serious harmonics. It took me two years to get a sound in that "register", because you need some serious emboucher to pull it off.

The Ovcharska Melodia is a "slow song" which is unmetered and often is the kaval version of a village song that has words. It also starts in "kaba" and goes in and out of "kaba" throughout the track. Also, noteworthy is that in parts of the melody, Ganchev is "circular breathing". I know a number of Bulgarians that can do that on kaval, which is a mind-blower to me as it is really hard to do with an instrument that doesn't have a lot of backpressure.

Ganchev is (was, actually) a true master kaval player.

To stay (sorta) with the thread, here are some pics showing the way he and a couple of other kaval masters hold their flutes. Ganchev is using an unorthodox right hand on top, but still holding the kaval to the right side.

http://www.kaval.dir.bg/en/photos.html

Bottom line... he was a master, his music... remarkable... his grip... well... I would not teach it that way, but I am sure not going to say it is wrong. LOL

...john

P.S. If anyone is having trouble with the slip jig rhythm, check out the first cut on the site (Krivo Plovdivsko Horo). It is in 13/16 time ( 2-2-2-3-2-2) (quick, quick, quick, slow, quick, quick).

[pipersgrip]

i can play a normal bohem flute just fine with the normal hold. i just have a real hard time on the Irish flute. i am playing a CB folk flute, and i am thinking that my hands might be too big.

[Lee Stanford]

If I may step in here, I'd like to say that I think the whole thing is subjective. While it's obvious that there are ways of playing that are just "wrong," like squeezing the flute really hard or blowing it the wrong way, or any position that doesn't allow the notes to come out, there is a certain flexibility on how you can hold it depending on a few things.

-Hand size/finger length/girth
-flute length
-hole spacing/size

I think that efficiency is the bottom line and what ever works best for you based on all the factors is what is best for you and I think it's great that there are different ways. However to codify it into either this or that way leaves some grey area that needs to be taken into consideration.

Sorry to bring Bansuri into this, but you should see some of the different grips for that flute!

http://www.knowyourraga.com/bansuri/les ... =howtohold

None are right or wrong. They facilitate different styles and different sized flutes.

I'm six foot seven inches tall and have very long piano fingers. So reaching the holes is never a problem. i go for what ever is the most comfortable. I like to reach a point in my playing in which I forget that a flute is even in my hands. I'm practicing to reach that point where there's just music and no realization of the self or the instrument. Any discomfort of the "grip" would hinder that experience.

So maybe that's it. If you are playing and still realize you're holding a flute, maybe that's an "against the grain" grip for what you're biologically set up for.

(edited a few times for bad grammar)

[Rob Sharer]

Good man, Lee. That's my whole point; anyone who claims that he can empirically prove that one grip is better than another is selling a bill of goods. Cheers,

Rob

[jim stone]

''Re: the Grey Larsen argument that others have been pursuing here, I haven't seen or read his book (would like to)...'

The virtue of Grey's treatment of grips isn't his discussion of
piper's grip, certainly. It's the detailed and careful
instructions he gives for getting into classical grip in a way
that will work for you.

If you're wanting to try classical grip,
or you're having difficulties with it, I think the book is
terrifically helpful and practical on this, especially if
you don't have access to a teacher.

The book is also helpful on holding whistles.

[CranberryDog]

Nevermind.

[rama]

Certainly, the key point about the "normal/standard/classical/Rockstro" hold is that, executed properly, for people whose physiology, especially of their hands, falls within the "normal" range and who have "normal" range flexibility, that hold demonstrably (statistically, historically, anatomically, mechanically) offers the best security for the instrument combined with the best dexterity of the fingers with the least risk of unhelpful or injurious tension in hands, arms, neck or breathing. ...Can I be more open-minded than that?

yes, i think a mind can be more open than that on this matter. please show the evidence behind your claim. it appears to me to be somewhat outrageous. my understanding is derived in part from treating repititive strain injuries for a living and so i might be open to a perspective that is slightly different than yours.

somebody ought to save those poor bansuri players, convert them to a proper method of holding the flute to prevent them from suffering from obvious rigid, sluggish and marginalized playing.

[flutefry]

Can't help noticing that some of the discussants are resorting to "proof by assertion (I'm right, you are wrong...). I also notice that these discussants are asking for proof from others that they aren't providing themselves. One can't really prove by example either, since there is no way to know what the player with the idiosyncratic grip or posture would be like if they played with some other grip or posture for the same length of time.

I've made a rudimentary argument why the normal grip should be more energy efficient than the piper's grip. This argument ignores biomechanical possibilities (like the elastic properties of tendons, or the possibilities for rebound being better on finger joints with less flesh compare to finger pads with more) that might (for all I know) be more important than energetic ones. Or maybe there are is data somewhere showing that using one grip or another is more or less prone to injury.

So is anyone able to provide an energetic/structural/biomechanical argument for why the piper's grip and normal grip are close enough to equivalent? If not, it might be easier just to go with "different strokes for different folks" and leave it at that.


Best,
Hugh