Glottal stops, newbie student needs help, please!

Cork · Post by **Cork** » Sat Sep 08, 2007 4:47 pm

A respected member of the C&F board recently suggested that I study glottal stops. Now, I recognise that glottal stops are a traditional part of ITM, but I have never made a study of them.

Yes, apparently expert instruction exists beyond the active membership of this board, but, frankly, I would rather learn glottal stop technique right here, from all of you, please.

OK, so, how are glottal stops done?

jim stone · Post by **jim stone** » Sat Sep 08, 2007 5:08 pm

Say 'Cup,' now leave out the 'p.'
That's it. Seems clumsy and slow at first but
it gets to be expressive and gives more
control than tonguing, which goes by
very quickly.

AaronMalcomb · Post by **AaronMalcomb** » Sat Sep 08, 2007 5:35 pm

I'd leave out the c too.

While a workable method of articulation, what Jim describes is just the back half of double tonguing.

Stopping air flow with the glottis is a different thing. It's the thing you do in your throat when you say 'uh-oh'.

Did you ever watch 'Woody the Woodpecker'? Try emulating that inane laugh (the Elmer Fudd laugh is a suitable option). Then try imitating it as silently as possible. Now try that with your jaw and lips in playing posture. The sound you want to hear is hollow, kind of dull sounding pop as your glottis clenches and immediately releases.

I'll add a disclaimer of YMMV.

-Aaron

BillG · Post by **BillG** » Sat Sep 08, 2007 5:55 pm

If you were a Scotsman saying the "glottal" you say it like "glot l" - the space is a echl sound. That's a glottal, glo el, coughing the "el", articulation. Work on it. It is really a good articulation.

rama · Post by **rama** » Sat Sep 08, 2007 6:06 pm

"I loathe and detest the traditional ITM, glottal stop technique. Yes, this is blasphemy here, on the C&F FF, but an open throat is a key technique to flute playing, and the glottal stop, even worse than humming, simply is detrimental to good flute technique."

um...what is it you need to learn?

Cork · Post by **Cork** » Sat Sep 08, 2007 6:11 pm

rama wrote:"I loathe and detest the traditional ITM, glottal stop technique. Yes, this is blasphemy here, on the C&F FF, but an open throat is a key technique to flute playing, and the glottal stop, even worse than humming, simply is detrimental to good flute technique."

um...what is it you need to learn?

You got the quote right, but apparently you don't know how to read.

rama · Post by **rama** » Sat Sep 08, 2007 6:30 pm

mistaken once again, cork.

Cork · Post by **Cork** » Sat Sep 08, 2007 6:49 pm

AaronMalcomb wrote:I'd leave out the c too.

While a workable method of articulation, what Jim describes is just the back half of double tonguing.

Stopping air flow with the glottis is a different thing. It's the thing you do in your throat when you say 'uh-oh'.

Did you ever watch 'Woody the Woodpecker'? Try emulating that inane laugh (the Elmer Fudd laugh is a suitable option). Then try imitating it as silently as possible. Now try that with your jaw and lips in playing posture. The sound you want to hear is hollow, kind of dull sounding pop as your glottis clenches and immediately releases.

I'll add a disclaimer of YMMV.

-Aaron

Your description says much, thank you.

The t-k technique is done in the mouth, but apparently the glottal stop is done in the upper throat.

Basically, that calls for a serious study, for closing the throat runs across the grain, so to speak, but, as promised, I will give it a fair try.

peeplj · Post by **peeplj** » Sat Sep 08, 2007 6:57 pm

In some ways to me a glottal feels almost like a light cough.

When you get used to it, it's actually not a bad way to articulate.

I've started using them some when playing Baroque pieces on silver flute...I can actually glottal almost as fast as I can double-tongue, and I like the softer, less bright articulation for this music quite a lot. Makes the silver flute actually sound a lot more "wooden" and less bright and metallic.

Back on the ITM side, you can combine a little heavier glottal with a strong breath pulse to really punch a note out from its fellows...very cool for reels like the Glass of Beer, for instance, or Fintan McManus's.

--James

jim stone · Post by **jim stone** » Sat Sep 08, 2007 7:58 pm

AaronMalcomb wrote:I'd leave out the c too.

While a workable method of articulation, what Jim describes is just the back half of double tonguing.

Stopping air flow with the glottis is a different thing. It's the thing you do in your throat when you say 'uh-oh'.

Did you ever watch 'Woody the Woodpecker'? Try emulating that inane laugh (the Elmer Fudd laugh is a suitable option). Then try imitating it as silently as possible. Now try that with your jaw and lips in playing posture. The sound you want to hear is hollow, kind of dull sounding pop as your glottis clenches and immediately releases.

I'll add a disclaimer of YMMV.

-Aaron

I'm afraid I don't remember the Woody the W laugh, nor
the Elmer Fudd laugh. So I'm not sure I've got this idea.
Is it the difference tween a G and a C?
God and Cup? G comes from deeper in the throat.

I'd better look up some anatomy.

Cubitt · Post by **Cubitt** » Sat Sep 08, 2007 8:08 pm

As with tonguing, you must learn control. Tonguing done properly does not introduce a TUH or DUH sound any more than glottal stops introduce a CUH sound. The idea is to momentarily stop the flow of air, whilst almost simultaneously giving the next note a pushoff without creating a sound other than the note to be played. The advantage to glottal stops in ITM is that the emphasis differs in a way that gives a tune a certain punch that tonguing does not provide. It also tends to sound less staccato.

jim stone · Post by **jim stone** » Sat Sep 08, 2007 8:09 pm

in phonetics, a momentary check on the airstream caused by closing the glottis (the space between the vocal cords) and thereby stopping the vibration of the vocal cords. Upon release, there is a slight choke, or coughlike explosive sound. The glottal stop is not a separate phoneme (or distinctive sound) in English, though it is one of the allophones of the t phoneme in some…

Encylopedia Brit

Wow, how one would use this in place of tonguing seems
to me mysterious rt now.

chas · Post by **chas** » Sat Sep 08, 2007 8:15 pm

jim stone wrote: Is it the difference tween a G and a C?

Uh-uh. (That's a glottal stop sound, two actually.)

jim stone · Post by **jim stone** » Sat Sep 08, 2007 8:17 pm

This will take some doing.

Cup works well, FWIW.

TheSpoonMan · Post by **TheSpoonMan** » Sat Sep 08, 2007 8:18 pm

Is it the difference tween a G and a C?
God and Cup? G comes from deeper in the throat.

No, teh difference there is that in G is voiced (the vocal chords are vibrating), but C is not.

Every consonant has a place of articulation- where your tongue, or wahtever else, does somethign to define your breath and/or larynx vibration. T and D are alveolar bnecuse they take place at the alveolus, P and B are labial becuase they take place at the lips, K and G are velar beuase they take place at the velum, etc. A glottal stop takes place at the glottis, or larynx- the vocal chords. You dont' use the tongue tho, of course. Just "pop" your glottis instead of vibrating it. It's very simple, and everyond not only can do but does it on a regular basis; but it's hard to explain.