D-minor pentatonic on tin whistle

[Tenebrus]

Hello! I just started playing tin whistle a month ago, and have been enjoying it immensely. I have very little musical background, although I did wrestle with the shakuhachi for several years and finally gave it up (perhaps because I never really enjoyed playing that much). However, with my newly found (ok, extremely limited) skills, I thought it would be fun to try some of the Japanese folk pieces I learned. Tried one on my D whistle, and it sounded awful. A musician friend of mine suggested that my whistle is in the wrong key for that sort of music, and after some research, I'm inclined to agree.

I'm fairly sure that shakuhachi is in the D-minor pentatonic scale. What would be the best way to play that? Would a C-whistle with E-minor fingering work? Is there such a thing as a D minor whistle? I've looked at various sources and have gotten more confused (one source said a C whistle, another said an F). Help!

[Adrian]

Tenebrus, welcome to Chiff & Fipple!

I find it easiest to play in Dm pentatonic on a C whistle. The notes are D, F, G, A, C


X X X X 0
X X X 0 X
X X 0 0 X

X 0 0 0 X
X 0 0 0 X
0 0 0 0 X

[Jason Paul]

A D whistle is in D major. Trying to make a D minor scale out of that wouldn't work really. On the D whistle, there are a couple of "natural" minor keys (or modes here), that can give you the sound you're looking for. E is one of them (second hole). If you focus on making that note home, you'll keep that minor feel.

That's the long way around what Adrian said. Just do that, but on a C whistle.

Jason

[Tenebrus]

Thank you both for your replies!

Adrian, is the fingering you wrote down for E minor on a D, D minor on a C, etc.? If so, what would the other notes be (that is, if I weren't playing pentatonic)?

Also (again, I'm really unmusical), if I make E my home, would I basically just shift all notes up one? Like, if song called for a C I would play D+ etc.? Are there any sharps/flats I need to watch out for in E minor/ D minor?

Thanks again!

[Jason Paul]

Whistles are transposing instruments. The fingering he wrote is the same for either. If you use a D whistle, it's Em, if you use a C whistle, it's Dm.

All of this depends on how far into music theory you want to go (which is a deep subject).

Here, we're actually talking about modes rather than keys. I'm sure you understand what a major key is, but it's the notes you need in order to make the western major scale (do, re, mi, fa...). Whistles in general are tuned to this scale, and come in different keys.

When you play the notes from bottom to top, you play the major scale. D major on a D whistle, C major on a C whistle, etc.

Next come modes. You can check them out here:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Musical_mode

If you look at the graphic there, you'll see the modes listed. Notice the Roman Numeral after the name? That gives you the position of the starting note.

So in the key of D (D whistle), if you start at the bottom note (all holes covered) and play the scale, you'll get the Ionian scale (major scale). If you start at the second hole (one hole showing - playing an E), and play the scale straight up the whistle - same NOTES as last time, just starting on E instead of D - you'll get the E Dorian mode.

E Dorian is a minor-sounding mode. Keep in mind that this won't be the modern, western D minor scale. For that, you'd need an F whistle (D is the relative minor - see below).

Back to D Ionian and E Dorian - the thing to note here is that these are in the SAME KEY (D), but because you're starting (and ending) on different notes within that key, you'll get different modes, and therefore different moods (major or minor).

Generally, the third note determines the overall feel of the mode. So, if the third note is minor (which is listed on the graphic at Wikipedia linked above), then the mode will have a minor sound.

In fact our western minor scale is the Aeolian mode, which is the sixth note of the major scale. This is why, when you look at the key signature (sharps and flats at the beginning of the sheet music), the key of C and the key of A minor are the same. A is the sixth of C, and is its relative minor. The key of F maj and D min are the same as well.

So with whistles, you don't need to know the sharps and flats so much. Just know the key you're in and use the appropriately keyed whistle.

Hope that helps (and doesn't confuse you further!).

Jason

[talasiga]

Tenebrus, the natural minor pentatonic you are talking about is a relative of the standard major pentatonic. If you take the perfect 5th of the major pentatonic and make it the tonic you will get the nat. min.5tonic.

It is a "gapped mode" because it drops the second and sixth intervals.
The remaining intervals are the keynote or tonic, the minor third, the perfect 4th, perfect 5th, and minor 7th. Therefore it could be equally seen to be a gapped aelioan, a gapped dorian and a gapped phrygian mode and THUS it can easily be played from anywhere that is the tonic of these modes on a simple flute or whistle.

Without cross fingering, on any simple diatonic flute or whistle
it will accessible from
here XXX XXO (Dorian tonic)
here XOO OOO (Aeolian tonic)
and here XXX XOO (Phrygian tonic)

With cross fingering it is accessible from
here XXO OOO
here XXX XXO
and XOO OOO
respectively

which, after ironing out the redunduncies in above result means
that you can play the thing from 4 different points on your tube. From which point you do will of course depend on the keynote you want and most importantly the Nature of the piece of music - its dip downs and so forth.

[MTGuru]

A question for you pentaphiles. What about the scale

|D E F-nat A Bb d| (available as |E F# G B c e| or |B c# d f# g b|)

Would this also be considered a minor pentatonic?

[Adrian]

A question for you pentaphiles. What about the scale

|D E F-nat A Bb d| (available as |E F# G B c e| or |B c# d f# g b|)

Would this also be considered a minor pentatonic?

It would for me. As you know, there are many different pentatonic scales used around the world in addition to the ones we commonly play in the west.

Perm any 5 from 12, and that's just using the western 12 note scale. Pentatonic scales I heard in Indonesia used notes not in the western 12-note scale.

[talasiga]

A question for you pentaphiles. What about the scale

|D E F-nat A Bb d| (available as |E F# G B c e| or |B c# d f# g b|)

Would this also be considered a minor pentatonic?

It is a minor pentatonic but not the one relative to your standard major peta. There are many different sorts which are used globally.

Note I am using standard to mean the standard which predominates in western music theory.

The particular one you describe, I use a lot if I am playing anything in the natural minor scale and I wish

* to improvise in a pentatonic that is within it and that is unusual (to western ears/and even north indian ears), AND
* I wish to evoke a kind of still snow has just fallen feeling - kind of Japanesee if you know what I mean.

In my composition work folder I have labelled this one Cipangu because I could not find a North Indian raag that employs this scale (yet) .

Another type of minor pentatonic is the scale of Raag Shivranjani
which, using your E keynote (this is most accessible on Irish D whistle)example would be:-

E F# G B C# E+

which is relative to another type of MAJOR scale - the scale of Raag Hans-dhwaani which you get if you shift the tonic to the G.

I am not as much of a "pentaphile" as you may think because in playing Shivaranjani for instance, I prefer the mishra (mixed) interpretation. In mishra, the tradition is to introduce a full third (for eg above that would be Ab). This is done only sometimes and for a particular emphasis and only by sliding up from the minor third. It is for this reason I prefer to employ the XXO OOO dorian tonic for it. So on my Irish flute I do it with A B C (and C#) E F# A+


ENJOY!

[MTGuru]

Adrian and talasiga, thanks both.

The OP referred to "the D-minor pentatonic scale". But knowing almost nothing about shakuhachi, I was reluctant to assume that the minor pentatonic that pops into my western head is what a shakuhachi would play.

I wish to evoke a kind of still snow has just fallen feeling - kind of Japanesee if you know what I mean.

Yes, exactly. I seem to associate that scale with the sound of the koto and a kind of sad or tranquil feel.

[John Gribble]

Getting back to the original question:

the fingering for the shakuhachi minor pentatonic scale is

XXX XXO
XXX OOO
XXO OOO
XOO OOO
OXX XXX
XXX XXO

The intervals, that is, the differences in pitch, are the same as on your D pitched shakuhachi. But to have it come out sounding in the key of D, you need to play it on an instrument in C.

But wait! There's more! Perhaps a more important reason it didn't sound very "shakuhachi-ish" is the register, or octave the standard whistle plays in. You're playing more than an octave higher than you did on shakuhachi. As a result, you'll have a "bright" rather than a "mellow" tone. A low whistle or (do I dare say it on this side?) a flute in D will play down closer to the range you're used to.

[talasiga]

WARNING:- this is a revived thread. The purpose of the revival will be patent upon perusal of this post.

.......
In my composition work folder I have labelled this one Cipangu because I could not find a North Indian raag that employs this scale (yet) .

.......

well I have just found it! It is the scale for Raag Lilavati
which see

[talasiga]

I am unable to edit this earlier post so I make the correction here (material to be corrected is underlined now):-

Tenebrus, the natural minor pentatonic you are talking about is a relative of the standard major pentatonic. If you take the perfect 5th of the major pentatonic and make it the tonic you will get the nat. min.5tonic.

It is a "gapped mode" because it drops the second and sixth intervals.


.................

Correction:- if you take the 5th note of the major pentatonic's scale (which, of course, is the one after its 4th note - which 4th note is, in fact, the "perfect 5th" !) and make that 5th note the keynote or tonic you will get the minor pentatonic scale.

[fearfaoin]

WARNING:- this is a revived thread. The purpose of the revival will be patent upon perusal of this post.

Thank you, good sir. That was extremely helpful.

[Doc Jones]

We recently had some wonderful "techno-talk" about odd scales playable on the whistle here: viewtopic.php?f=20&t=65594

Enjoy

Doc