Recorders vs whistles info needed

[violinmyster]

Was wondering if any of you whistle players have played recorders and what is the difference as far as playing . Cindy

[plunk111]

I play both (well, I mostly play whistle/flute now, but I USED to play both)... I would say the major difference (aside from the obvious fingering issues) is that the recorder is a much more "delicate" instrument. It is quieter, yes, but it also seems to require a lot better breath control. The recorder also has a more limited "top end". Realistically, you can only get about 1 1/2 octaves out of it. We (whistle/flute) players like to belittle the recorder, but it is a beautiful sound and has a significant place in the history of woodwind instruments.

It's not better (or worse), it's just different...

Pat

[jim stone]

Playing recorder gives you hairy finger pads. Don't ask
me how I know.

Also recorder is entirely chromatic and very agile,
so it can play classical (especially baroque) music
very readily. Whistle
is a folk instrument, meant for playing in a few
standard keys. It has a very different sound
which I like much better. You don't have to
be embarassed taking it into a pub.

[walrii]

The basic skills are the same: precise fingering and breath control. They are both fipple flutes, after all. The style of music played generally played on each instrument differs quite a bit. As noted above, the recorder is a chromatic instrument so, theoretically, you only need one instrument to play in any key. In practice, because the range is limited, most serious recorder players end up learning both C and F recorders. Visit a recorder forum for more info. I play both (not particularly well in both cases) and enjoy them both.

[Grexrell]

I'm learning to play both. Although prioritizing the whistle.
The biggest differences I notice is the sound, the extra two holes, the shift between octaves and its chromatic nature.

I don't know how to adequately describe the differences in sound, a problem that has prevented me from knowing for sure what it is I want from my next whistle purchase. But they sound distinct, especially when you play them yourself. Personally I like the tone of most of whistles better. But I still like the recorders voice.

The extra holes were never a problem for me, my pinky hit the seventh hole without any hesitation. I find playing a C recorder and comparing it to a D whistle useful as I learn sheet music for both. This way, three fingers down from the top is a G on both, 2 fingers A on both etc.. Though this splits off briefly as you hit the F and F# note differences and where the next octave starts.
The thumb hole is important for octave control. It took me quite a while to get the hang of it, but i finally did. Now i can play Adrian's oboe (name of the song. Theme from 'The mission)' on both recorder and whistle. The thumb hole demands that you spill air out of it at varying degrees, depending on which second octave note your after. I applied this to the whistle, and use my top finger (B hole) as a makeshift thumb hole/octave controller and was able to drastically quiet the second octave notes below B. I'm still trying to learn how to quiet the B to match.

If you look at a fingering chart of both the whistle and recorder, you'll notice that the fingering to get the second octave is much much easier on the whistle. Once you learn a finger position is D it stays throughout. (at least until the third octave, where things get a bit weird.) It just involves breath control.

I play the recorder for its chromatic nature more then its feel, playability or tone. That and Its sufficiently similar to the whistle, so that whatever tune, or technique I learn on one, I can apply quickly to the other. Like any Irish ornamentation/articulation I learn on the whistle I apply without thinking to the recorder when I'm making up tunes. And learning to read sheet music on the recorder has helped me pick up tunes for the whistle faster.
I suggest, if you get the choice, that you get a German system recorder.
There are two kinds of recorders. English and German system.
I have both. (Got my recorders from my Dad. 1 Sopranino in F, 2 Sopranos in D, wood and plastic, and 1 Alto in F, wood, and 1 Bass in C, plastic)
As far as i can tell, and as far as my recorder book tells me, the only difference is primarily the hole size of two holes. Which governs the fingering required for a F natural
The German system is easier, its likes the whistle, you remove one finger at a time and move smoothly up the scale.
On the the English system you move up one finger at a time, hit the F natural spot, do a strange cross fingering, and move up again like the german system.
I am confused as to why the english system is even made. I keep meaning to look into but, well, I'd rather play then research sometimes.
I don't find the chromatic fingering on the recorder to be any more difficult to do or remember than C natural on the whistle.

Well thats it for my opinion, hope it helps.
If I made a mistake somewhere in there, or if you have a question for my limited knowledge and experience, than let me know

[synergy]

I play both (well, I mostly play whistle/flute now, but I USED to play both)... I would say the major difference (aside from the obvious fingering issues) is that the recorder is a much more "delicate" instrument. It is quieter, yes, but it also seems to require a lot better breath control. The recorder also has a more limited "top end". Realistically, you can only get about 1 1/2 octaves out of it. We (whistle/flute) players like to belittle the recorder, but it is a beautiful sound and has a significant place in the history of woodwind instruments.

It's not better (or worse), it's just different...

Pat

I have no problem getting 2+ octaves from my Steenbergen and my Denner.

It was said that the recorder is better suited for specific types of music which I don't totally agree with. Sure it is well suited for baroque and early classical but don't limit it to just that. My Mollenhauer Dream recorders sound very good as folk instruments and play beautifully for Celtic, Morris, and Contra Dance as well. My Steenbergen would not sound good for folk but then it was designed to excell at early baroque. There are medieval and renaissance recorders that fit well for those time eras and sound poorly for baroque. What I'm trying to get at is that it depends very much on the individual instrument. MTGuru just proved how well a whistle sounded for a Telemann piece.

[MTGuru]

I suggest, if you get the choice, that you get a German system recorder.

*GASP*!

The German system was a bastardized effort by early 20th C. German educators to create a Volks-instrument for school kids. They took the baroque/modern fingering system that had evolved over several hundred years, and hacked it for the sake of one note - resulting in an instrument that is inherently out of tune with itself in part of the range, and making certain cross-fingerings and shadings problematic.

This article gives an overview of the problem:

http://www.aswltd.com/finger.htm

My Mollenhauer Dream recorders sound very good as folk instruments and play beautifully for Celtic, Morris, and Contra Dance as well.

Yes, the big-bore Renaissance-hybrid Mollenhauer Dream makes a nice folk instrument, and the plastic soprano is a great bargain.

[Grexrell]

*GASP*!
The German system was a bastardized effort by early 20th C. German educators to create a Volks-instrument for school kids. They took the baroque/modern fingering system that had evolved over several hundred years, and hacked it for the sake of one note - resulting in an instrument that is inherently out of tune with itself in part of the range, and making certain cross-fingerings and shadings problematic.

Hmm well I should have known there was a good reason.
Of course hitting the notes dead on isn't my highest priority right now, but at least I won't glare at my English recorders anymore.

[hoopy mike]

Ah, recorders...

Happy memories of my school teacher trying to teach a class of 30 nine year olds how to play. The teacher smoked a pipe throughout the lessons. Occasionally he would put the pipe down and borrow a pupil's recorder to show how it should be played, then give the nicotine stained instrument back to the lucky child. Now that's what I call passive smoking.

I guess there must be all sorts of nasty chemical corrosive effects when smokers play whistles...

stay hoopy,
Mike

[Tootler]

Hmm well I should have known there was a good reason.
Of course hitting the notes dead on isn't my highest priority right now, but at least I won't glare at my English recorders anymore.

Historically, recorder fingerings varied widely. However in modern times the two systems commonly known as "English" or "Baroque" and "German" are the most common. The English system is fairly close to the systems commonly used in the later renaissance and baroque periods and provides good intonation across the range of the recorder. The German system arose from a misunderstanding of the nature of the instrument. The Dolmetsch website (http://www.dolmetsch.com/fingerings.htm) has this to say about the German system.

'German' fingering (doigte moderne in French), the fingering you use only on a German fingered recorder, is a 20th century creation. The recorder was introduced in Germany by Peter Harlan (1898-1966), as an instrument whose sound, to quote Harlan, "could not be enhanced, no matter how great the art; whose essence could not be altered by any virtuosity". Harlan attended one of the early Haslemere Festivals organised by Arnold Dolmetsch and came away with a set of Dolmetsch's new recorders. Its obvious simplicity led some to believe that the recorder is unsophisticated and that the standard baroque or 'English' system was unnecessarily complicated and would be difficult to teach. This patent absurdity has led, over the last sixty years or so, to the manufacture of countless millions of instruments based on what is an inferior system. On inspection one sees that while the diatonic scale is simpler than in the 'English' system, the fingerings for the chromatic notes are just as complicated but, what one is less minded to forgive, the non-diatonic notes are less well in tune than on instruments made to the English system which is much closer to the fingerings found on surviving original baroque instruments.

I would suggest that you get rid of your German fingered recorders and learn the Baroque fingering as it gives good intonation over the normal range of two octaves.

I know you said above that hitting the notes dead on isn't your priority, but it is what you should be aiming for so why settle for a system that does not enable you to do that?

Geoff

[synergy]

Yes, the big-bore Renaissance-hybrid Mollenhauer Dream makes a nice folk instrument, and the plastic soprano is a great bargain.

Yeah, sometimes there just too loud (and I never thought there was such a thing ) I have three of them in pear. I'm selling one of them if anyone is interested in one.

[Thomas-Hastay]

The Cylidrical bore of the Renaissance Flute and Recorder were prone to the same pitch flattening in the upper registers as our modern Tin Whistle. As the Air column velocity and pressure increases with each overblown register, the "Flat pitch"(phase shift) error becomes more pronounced in these cylindrical bores.

The Recorder and some pro-flute designs, like the Pratton Flute, use a conical taper in the bore or a footjoint, to adjust the "backpressure" (acoustic impedance) and correct for flat pitch. The technique also results in a limited range of only 2 & 1/2 octaves. Tin Whistle and Cylindrical flute players compensate for flat pitch with "embouchure" adjustments (blowing harder). This is why the upper registers of the Tin Whistle are so shrill and piercing.

Simple Conclusion: Tin Wistles have greater register range, but require pitch correction. Recorders are more accurate in tone, but have a limited register range. I suggest owning several of each...WhOA!

Thomas Hastay.

[DreamOgreen]

I also agree that both are fine instruments and are fun to play. At first I found the different fingering to be a tough transition. Now however,(Thanks Walrii) I find the two "different" enough where the brain just kind of automatically adjusts to what I'm playing and the right fingerings just 'happen'.
I wouldn't say though that Recorders are necessarily quieter. Some of my recorders are louder than some of my whistles, it just depends on the brands.
It does seem that getting the full two octaves of range takes a bit more finesse with the recorder. not only the breath control needs to be there but also the correct covering of the thumb hole is important. This isn't hard to do really just a little different.
For me, the whistle is better on the fast tunes and for folk type music where ornamentation is important. One can do ornamentation on the recorder, but it does feel a bit ackward.

[TheSpoonMan]

For me, the whistle is better on the fast tunes and for folk type music where ornamentation is important. One can do ornamentation on the recorder, but it does feel a bit ackward.

With the Irish stuff, taps in particular (and thus rolls etc) are difficult because of the cross-fingerings. I don't really play anything Irish on my recorder; don't think the sound fits. But other people think different.

[Thomas-Hastay]

A "Compromise " can be had...A Whistle with a conical tapered bore will be more accurate and retain the "whistle" fingering. No cross-finger hassel. If you chose a brand with a large voicing and tone holes, it will be louder. (This is what Boehm did with the tapered bore flute.) Loudness is a feature of large holes and voicings. An instrument with a shallow angled labium ramp gives faster register changes (Ref/ Tabor Pipes) and allows the player to "pitch-bend" the notes with breath control.

A Whistle with a slight but not pronouced taper, with large holes and voicing, will play more accurate, retain the simple linear fingering and sound just as loud but sweeter than a standard whistle. It may be limited to 3 octaves, but honestly, do you need more? I know there are several brands that meet this criteria (Ralph Sweet, Adler etc.).