Fiddle playing with flat sets ( uilleann)

[fel bautista]

I was at our pipers club meeting yesterday and there were 4 people playing Bb sets. Unfortunately I was the fifth and no Bb chanter. So, I took my fiddle and tuned it down to Bb. The strings were so slack, I couldn't really get them in tune. Not that it matters since pipes are in Bb-ish.

My question is, what gage strings should I use so the strings are not so slack, but will not do any harm to the instrument. This asumes that I have a 2nd fiddle to restring.

Inquiring minds, etc

[hyldemoer]

I think I understand what you're describing. You tuned your fiddle strings down 2 whole steps so you could play tunes in Bb as if they were in the key of D.

I haven't a clue how my fiddle would respond tuned 2 whole steps lower. The lowest I've ever tried was one whole step down to play Cajun tunes and it handled it fine.

I don't know if there are any special strings out there to accommodate two whole steps lower.

I do know that its suggested that if one intends to change the tuning of a fiddle around a lot they should switch to steel strings if they aren't using them already. (The synthetic strings don't take kindly to having their tuning switched around a lot.)

Over on Fiddle-L they've been discussing Bb tunes this past week.

I haven't been following it closely.
I just now noticed this over there

Some fiddle players are prone to crank the strings up a half-step to play along, but it was a great challenge to stay on the dark side with Bb. I will say though, that when Barry switched to the smaller border pipes we got back to the land of open strings in A.

Go have a look see. Perhaps there's more talk along that line in this week's archives.

[fel bautista]

I use Thomastik Vision (Steel), nothing fancy

[Doug_Tipple]

Violin strings are usually available in light, medium or high tension. Correct me if I am wrong, but high tension steel strings would have greater tension and thus be more playable when lowered two whole tones (the D string tuned down to a Bb).

[fel bautista]

That's true. I used to use a set of heavy gage LaBella silk and steel 12 string set on my guitar and tune it down to C or so, ala Pete Seeger.

I haven't found ( or maybe haven't looked) "heavy" tension strings for violin, that's why I posted the question.

[Doug_Tipple]

I haven't found ( or maybe haven't looked) "heavy" tension strings for violin, that's why I posted the question.

High tension strings can be ordered online from a variety of sources. Southwest Strings in Tucson has a complete string catalogue and competitive prices.

[KarenCook]

Well, I had a fiddle bought just outside St. Louis that was already set up with a flatter bridge and Super-Sensitive steel strings.

To play with a B set of uilleann pipes, I tuned it down one tone and 1/2 on each string. I actually did it at my local fiddle shop, just in case the sound post collapsed or the pegs slipped too much. It held up fine.

I decided to try the strings I like on my concert pitch, Helicore Medium-Gauge. It made a huge difference in the tone. I also replaced the Helicore E string with a Piastro wound E, even a better sound was had.

It does feel different to play than the D fiddle. When I asked advice in handling a lower tuned fiddle from Caoimhín Ó Raghallaigh, he said that the bowing was way more important than the left hand and just enjoy the sound of the lowered strings. He also said to drone two strings together all you want and not get too fancy with the left hand while playing.

Fair play to you, enjoy the sound!

[Doug_Tipple]

Well, I had a fiddle bought just outside St. Louis that was already set up with a flatter bridge and Super-Sensitive steel strings.

Since the topic is about flatness in terms of pitch, a flatter bridge does not mean that the bridge is cut to play with lower tension (in B or Bb, for example). Flat in this instance refers to being less curved. Old time fiddle players and folk musicians like to have their violin bridge flatter than a concert bridge. This allows going back and forth from one string to another with less hand motion on the bow than is required on a concert setup. A flatter bridge also makes it easier to play triple stops with a little downward pressure on the bow. However, a flatter bridge may be TOO FLAT when you lower the strings 3 or 4 half-tones to play in a flat key. A flat bridge and flat strings will make it that much harder to single out notes on the 2nd and 3rd strings of the violin. You will end up playing a lot of double and triple stops but perhaps not always intentionally. In theory, anyway, if you plan to use the flatly-tuned fiddle as a melody instrument, it might be a better to have a higher arched bridge so that you can more easily separate the notes of the melody.

[KarenCook]

Since the topic is about flatness in terms of pitch, a flatter bridge does not mean that the bridge is cut to play with lower tension (in B or Bb, for example). .

Doug, I was only describing the flatness of the bridge relative to a more classically set up bridge. Of course the flat bridge has no advantage for a flat pitch tuning. I was describing the fiddle itself. I could have also described it as having a rosewood fingerboard, that also has nothing to do with the flat (as in tuned down) pitch.

As far as accidentally playing strings because of the flatter bridge, you get used to playing one note at a time, or choose to play two, never really had a problem with that with this instrument.

Fel, it is just going to feel like a different instrument to you with that different string tension. Are you leaving a instrument tuned down all the time? That is what works for me. BBBBBBBBbbbbbbbbbb

[fel bautista]

I wished I had a second fiddle to keep at the low pitch. (anyone, anyone!! ) You are right , it is a different sound and was a hoot to play. We had 4 Bb sets going and I could barely hear myself, except for the missed note part.


And on a different note
How was the weather in Chicago on Sunday? I read that Rev Pat said they closed the festival down.

[SteveK]

A few years ago at the Goderich festival a fiddler and a piper were playing constantly together at the piper's tent. (he builds pipes). They were even playing at a restaurant patio. The piper was playing a Bb set. I thought the sound was great. It seems to be a different mood from D.

[fel bautista]

To my ears, the flat sets have a marvelous sound (and I want one!!) Google "Kitty Lie Over" with Mick O'Brien and Caoimhín Ó Raghallaigh. Great recording of fiddle and a flat set of pipes.

[Nanohedron]

Yeah, Kitty Lie Over is the stuff, all right.

For B or Bb pipes, yer reed's all the difference. Sometimes those sets will sound mushy and and vague and unsatisfying if the reed's not at its best. Kieran O'Hare has a kicka$$ reed in his B set with a hard D (B, whatever. I'm talkin' piperese, here ) to die for. Same with Pat Cannady whose lovely wife, the above-posting Karen, duos up with him on fiddle. As to tuning down fiddles, give heed to her. Trust me on this. She knows whereof she speaks.

I had the delightful opportunity of playing backup for Karen and Pat in B mode with my gizmo. If memory serves I believe I put the capo at the 4th fret, with the G forms standing in for D (B, whatever. See above ), and taking it from there. It's a trip figuring that stuff out on the fly, I can tell you.

Waiddaminit. Karen, is Pat's flat set B or Bb? If it is B, then I ought to have been capoed at the fifth fret, but that's not how I remember it...

[KarenCook]

Yeah, Kitty Lie Over is the stuff, all right.

For B or Bb pipes, yer reed's all the difference. Sometimes those sets will sound mushy and and vague and unsatisfying if the reed's not at its best. Kieran O'Hare has a kicka$$ reed in his B set with a hard D (B, whatever. I'm talkin' piperese, here ) to die for. Same with Pat Cannady whose lovely wife, the above-posting Karen, duos up with him on fiddle. As to tuning down fiddles, give heed to her. Trust me on this. She knows whereof she speaks.

I had the delightful opportunity of playing backup for Karen and Pat in B mode with my gizmo. If memory serves I believe I put the capo at the 4th fret, with the G forms standing in for D (B, whatever. See above ), and taking it from there. It's a trip figuring that stuff out on the fly, I can tell you.

Nano, you rocked on the gizmo, very sensitive and nice playing! We enjoy playing those B instruments, very meditative and relaxing! Thanks for the Kudos, right back at you!

Anywho, Fel, maybe you can get one of those B whistles to play with those B pipers you know, that is fun as well. Pat bought a Susato VSB B and our flute playing friends play that with us!

[Nanohedron]

Aw, shucks.

But I guess that answers my question...must've been the 5th fret after all.

People will ask why I have C, B, and Bb whistles, and I always tell 'em that it's so I can play with the flat-setters if need be. All I need now is a C#, but those are about as hard to come by as C# pipes. Still, I'm on the lookout. Just in case, like.