Conical bore and tone holes

[Anita]

So regarding the liquid plastic you would use to produce the conical shape- what sort of stuff is this? I was actually thinking along the same lines recently- pondering how I could produce a conical bored whistle or flute on the cheap, ie PVC- I was thinking that producing a mold of the correct conical shape that would fit inside the PVC tube and using perhaps a liquid epoxy to do the job of filling out the desired portion of the tube would be a possibility but I wasn't sure if it would work or not.

Anita

[Carey]

... but I wasn't sure if it would work or not.

It will work if "work" means you will make something that makes sound. Make three or four bodies and poke some small holes in one of them where you want your fingers to go. The goal is to have all the notes pretty flat at this point. If you have some sharp holes, poke holes again and move the flat holes (and any others that might be in the way) down the tube. Then slowly make them all larger. The notes that are most flat make larger faster with the goal of having all the notes a little flat so you can bring them all in tune together. The first one or two will teach you some things about the behavior of your particular methods and the third or fourth one should be quite nice.

If you've not made any whistles to date, you might want to make some according to Guido's instructions so you know you have the head part down before you go messing with the body.

I encourage you to follow your intuition, and don't worry so much about what has been done before. Greg has taken a novel approach and has come up with a good low whistle following his own mind. (C&F Disclaimer: apparently. I've yet to play one, but the clips sound good, and others who have played them have made comments.) Like Greg, sharing your methods might stir some debate, but it will add to the body of knowledge. And that's a good thing. I have quite a few chapters in my yet to be published book "Dang! That Didn't Work Either."

Discoveries and ideas don't always come on demand or from folks in white coats with R&D budgets. You know why Ivory Soap floats? Because way way back the guy running the mixer fell asleep while he was making a batch and it mixed for far too long. Seemed OK, so they made bars of soap. In a little while they started getting letters in from overjoyed housewives about how nice it was that the soap floated on top of the wash tub and they didn't have to grope around the bottom to find it. Then the company had to figure out why it floated, and make sure all the future ones did too.

I suggest starting a thread similar to the one I did when I was going to tweak my nach Meyer flute. It was a big help to me, and I hope helpful or interesting to others.

viewtopic.php?f=2&t=61643

Have fun and let us know how you are getting along!

Carey

[Gregrussell]

as for me...I won't post anymore of my ideas here lol, ...I'll just keep to myself!
Hans, the layout you illistrated was wrong...just wing it! you'll be much happier Mitch is right!!

Greg - I would love to learn why my diagram is wrong, it seems just like yours.

I am so sorry! I never intended to offend you. I just tried to understand your method. I was insensitive as I did not realise that you would take any critic on applying the Golden Ratio to whistle design so serious, that it seems to be a religious thing. Sorry! I did not think we would have a fallout over whistle design methods because of science vs religion here. Oh dear!

In the end, re whistle design, whatever works for you works, never mind what unusual method you use. I totally respect you for the efforts and the outcome, especially creating superb new whistles and expanding the low whistle designs! And I thank you what you have shared here about your whistle making process. It has stimulated much interest in me, and others, and helped me to deepen my limited understanding of whistle and flute design.

My own approach is a mix of empirical, practical experimentation, and theoretical analysis using mathematical methods based on acoustic physics. The modelling software I have used is limited and leads to approximations of a good model. Fine tuning and voicing is an art. In that respect I can agree with Mitch that every whistle is different, if ever so slightly. Still, with a good mathematical approach you can come up with new models, not based on copies of other instruments. Refining the model so the new instrument is in tune etc may be necessary using some practical experimentation. And manual fine tuning and voicing is always necessary.

Anyway, I hope we can share more of this here. It is fascinating to see the many approaches whistle designers took, to see so many very different whistle models. There is a lot more variation in the whistle world than in the simple flute world. There is more design from first principles and more experimentation. All of this is most encouraging!

Cheers,
Hans

Hans, lol...your hilarious! religion...science...you crack me up! I'm just to busy to debate with you, you seem so eager to prove me wrong!..thats fine you have that right but, i'm to busy to take you to whistle design court ....and by the way jesus loves you too
but really your more interested in proving someone to be an idiot then learning or sharing....my advice is to stop intelectualizing and convoluting your life with equations...In my original post I said to use the golden ratio as a refference layout(not a religious or scientific layout) be prepared to scrap a tube or two...this is my method of layout not religion! and by the way you reversed the "G" In your layout> and in the end I believe I said "I didnt' believe in magic formulas"
It comes down to "custom Chaos" my new quote lol

lmao
Greg

[hans]

In my original post I said to use the golden ratio as a refference layout(not a religious or scientific layout) be prepared to scrap a tube or two...this is my method of layout not religion! and by the way you reversed the "G" In your layout> and in the end I believe I said "I didnt' believe in magic formulas"
It comes down to "custom Chaos" my new quote lol

Thanks, your comment about reversing 'G' (fourth hole) is helpful, as you did not show 'G' in your original sketch. This will bring the mark for hole four to 76.5, instead of 86mm on my sketch. The pic of your fat low D is also helpful to understand how your choice of hole location is guided by the 1.618 ratio.
Basically a layout a bit like OO--O--OO--O,
i.e. distances progressing from hole to hole
like 1->1.6->1.6->1->1.6
Then you adjust hole sizes to get the tuning right. Fair enough.

But in your original post you say:

...divide by 1.618 by 1.618 by 1.618....this will layout the nodes of your tube, layout your hole based on your nodes...you can see how the hole gets bigger closer to the node....

and later you say a similar thing about nodes on a guitar string. I was objecting to your notion that wave node locations can be calculated by dividing by 1.618. I think there is no scientific base for this. But maybe I am wrong. For instance fret locations on a guitar fretboard are laid out in a logarithmic series, reflecting the logarithmic even scale of 12 semitones (equal temperament). There are no magical formulas involved, unless logarithms are classed as magic

Wave and tone hole equations for flutes are more complex, but can still deliver approximate design models. Kosel's Flutomat design software has its limits, but it is still useful. The script itself is full of formulas, I admit, but hardly magical, just a bit complex. I am working on refining it, and will share my results when ready.

Happy whistle making!
~Hans

[jiminos]

hi, all!

after playing around with this all day at work, here is what i came up with. using only the Phi ratio and a Feadog D whistle....





when i got home, i got out two D fifes that i made recently using an entirely different method of arriving at hole placement, and with the exception of the T1 hole... ALL holes lined up perfectly! it was so cool. using the ratios, it seems to suggest that T1 be places just a little further south than it is on the Feadog... if memory serves me... if i did place T1 at the indicated location and made it a tad larger, it should work. i will give it a try in the next few days...

anyway... laying it out like this definitely helped to understand Greg's approach. and.... i like it. I told him I would call this the "Lochlan Matrix."

so, here ya go. enjoy.

be well,

jim