simple system fingering on a Boehm flute

[Doc Jones]

We've been discussing Boehm flutes a bit of late and it got me to thinking...

While I have all the respect in the world for Mr. Boehm and his shiny tooters and what he did for jazz and classical fluting, it makes me cranky that the F# key is on the wrong touch (lowering ring finger instead of lifting index finger).

I understand that he was after a C scale not a D scale (and that it all makes perfect sense from that warped perspective), but I was just wondering if it would be possible to do a Boehm flute that was designed around D instead of C. Seems like once upon a time I saw an antique discussed here that was that way.

Anyway, does or did anyone ever do such a thing? Could a regular modern flute be somehow modified to do such a thing?

I'm sure the funky F# is the only thing keeping me from playing just like Joannie Madden!

Doc

[Denny]

it does make the flat keys a bit easier though, not having to flat 2 sharps before you can start.

Coming from sax I've used XXX OXO for F#
Yeah I tried XXX OOX first but dang....

[TheSpoonMan]

I play Boehm flute, and (in Irish music) I never use XXXOOX for F#, except very occasionally when going down from G. Always XXXOXO. It works just fine for Irish music, a little flat but easy to push into tune, no harder than simple system's XXXXOO.

[jemtheflute]

There are oodles of mid-late C19th hybrid designs using Bohm's tube ("parabolic" head + cylinder body) with anything from standard 8-key simple system tone-holes and key-work through Siccama-ish versions of the latter but using (more-or-less) Bohm's enlarged and better placed tone-holes and rod-axle keywork to ..... well, all sorts, e.g. Clinton, Carte's patents, Rockstro's version of Bohm, Radcliff, Guards' Model, etc. etc. Go browse the DCM or Rick Wilson's website or .... I could go on. Haven't got time right now to patch links in, sorry.

Basically, Doc, loads and loads of C19th fluters, pro and amateur felt just as you have explained - and did things about it. Plenty of the results are still out there (and crop up on eBay or at dealers from time to time), though at least in the case of English flutes we tend to be talking about instruments made in the full flux of the High Pitch era, so many of them aren't any practical use to us now. Read both Bohm's own treatise and Rockstro (who gives pretty detailed accounts of many of the hybrids) and probably Powell and Baines - or just browse "flute history" online and see where it takes you - loads of stuff out there!

[peeplj]

Just a minor quibble, I don't think Boehm's goal was actually to move the "diatonic" scale of the flute from D to C.

What Boehm wanted was a flute where each chromatic note had its own optimally-sized and, as much as possible, optimally-placed tone hole.

You have three fingers on the right hand that have to control four tone holes (I'm excluding the pinky because it doesn't apply to the F# / F-natural issue). The mechanism he designed accomplishes that pretty elegantly, and even allows a "cheat" fingering for rapidly going from F-sharp to E.

Are there other designs that accomplish the same goals? Sure. But his design works, is fairly simple (the right-hand portion, anyway), gets the job done, is durable, is quiet (when properly lubricated, anyway), and best of all, allows for easy adjustment of the linkages, either with adjustment screws (on most flutes), or by gluing paper of varying thickness on an adjustment bar on the kicker for the key (on the very finest hand-made flutes).

Not a bad piece of work, all things considered.

--James

[Doc Jones]

I play Boehm flute, and (in Irish music) I never use XXXOOX for F#, except very occasionally when going down from G. Always XXXOXO. It works just fine for Irish music, a little flat but easy to push into tune, no harder than simple system's XXXXOO.

Ah, that's much handier. Thanks Denny & Spooner.

Doc

[Doc Jones]

Just a minor quibble, I don't think Boehm's goal was actually to move the "diatonic" scale of the flute from D to C.

What Boehm wanted was a flute where each chromatic note had its own optimally-sized and, as much as possible, optimally-placed tone hole.

You have three fingers on the right hand that have to control four tone holes (I'm excluding the pinky because it doesn't apply to the F# / F-natural issue). The mechanism he designed accomplishes that pretty elegantly, and even allows a "cheat" fingering for rapidly going from F-sharp to E...

Not a bad piece of work, all things considered.

--James

Not bad at all. Quite an elegant piece of work IMO. And, even more impressive to me now that I've been made aware of the xxx0x0 option. It's quite a lot better. Look out Joannie!

Thanks all

Doc

[david quinn]

The 1867 model by Rudall Carte had the f# in the correct place as did a Radcliffe piccolo i had.

as a poster said u can use xxx oxo instead of xxx oox

Their are a couple of the Guardsman models on Ebay the now that incorporate some of the old fingering with Boehms fingering wish i had some spair cash just now, i bel;ieve the seller has loads of wooden flutes of different pitches on sale just now.

http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/Rudall-Carte-Wood ... 240%3A1318

http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/Antique-Rudall-Ca ... 240%3A1318

[pipersgrip]

We've been discussing Boehm flutes a bit of late and it got me to thinking...

While I have all the respect in the world for Mr. Boehm and his shiny tooters and what he did for jazz and classical fluting, it makes me cranky that the F# key is on the wrong touch (lowering ring finger instead of lifting index finger).

I understand that he was after a C scale not a D scale (and that it all makes perfect sense from that warped perspective), but I was just wondering if it would be possible to do a Boehm flute that was designed around D instead of C. Seems like once upon a time I saw an antique discussed here that was that way.

Anyway, does or did anyone ever do such a thing? Could a regular modern flute be somehow modified to do such a thing?

I'm sure the funky F# is the only thing keeping me from playing just like Joannie Madden!

Doc

That has always been my biggest problem with the Boehm flute. Plus, I like to feel my breath on my fingers when I play, I think you can do more tricks with a simple system flute.

[Denny]

XXX OXO huh? wow....

[peeplj]

XXX OXO huh? wow....

There's a catch with that:

There's usually not a whole lot of difference between xxx|oxo and xxx|oox on most flutes, just a few cents in pitch (if that much), and no real difference in tone.

However....

On older Boehm-system flutes, and even on some new very high-end Boehm-system flutes, there is a real difference in tone between the two fingerings. On these flutes, the tone of xxx|oox is no different from the notes around it, but xxx|oxo will have a very veiled, even unpleasant sound by comparison.

Not saying that there's anything wrong with using xxx|oxo; on the flutes that respond well to it, it's perfectly fine. Just be aware some Boehm-system flutes, including some really excellent ones, won't respond well to that fingering.

--James

[LorenzoFlute]

Last year I had to play a bohem flute for some time because i needed the keys to play at a concert. I didn't even consider the xxx oox fingering, xxx oxo sounded exactly the same and was very easy, it didn't take much effort to get use to it. And you can even roll it!

[Doc Jones]

Last year I had to play a bohem flute for some time because i needed the keys to play at a concert. I didn't even consider the xxx oox fingering, xxx oxo sounded exactly the same and was very easy, it didn't take much effort to get use to it. And you can even roll it!

Yeah, it's the roll that's the rub with the xxoox version. xxxoxo works fine with the roll.

That has always been my biggest problem with the Boehm flute. Plus, I like to feel my breath on my fingers when I play, I think you can do more tricks with a simple system flute.

I agree that a simple system flute is superior for IrTrad and other folk forms that don't go off into odd keys. My McGee GLP isn't going anywhere.

It's interesting how our instrument molds our repertoire. I don't play any Irish tunes that have accidentals. Maybe I should get some keys so I can learn some new tunes.

Doc

[peeplj]

You can roll an F-sharp with either fingering:

xxx|oox
(cut) xxo|oox
xxx|oox
(tap) xxx|xox
xxx|oox

or

xxx|oxo
(cut) xxo|oxo
xxx|oxo
(tap) xxx|xxo
xxx|oxo

You can also very easily roll an F-natural, something more difficult on the simple system flute:

xxx|xoo
(cut) xxo|xoo
xxx|xoo
(tap) xxx|xxo or xxx|xxx
xxx|xoo

--James

[Doc Jones]

Indeed.

But the second one feels a lot more like a roll to me.

Doc