Tenor Banjo bridge placement

[fearfaoin]

So, I bought a used Deering 17-fret tenor banjo.
It is an absolute blast to play, but I have one
problem. I can get the bridge positioned correctly
so that the top 3 strings (D-A-E) are in tune up
the fretboard. I cannot, however, find a good
placement for the G string. When the open G is
in tune, the frets are all very sharp. I have
moved the bridge as close to the tailpiece as it
will go, and it's still sharp. Is there some way to
compensate for this? Could I use a different gauge
of string, or a different tailpiece?

So far, I've been compensating by just tuning to
the fretted notes and letting the open G be pain-
fully flat... Not a long-term solution for me...

[Thomaston]

If you're moving the bridge back and forth while keeping it completely perpendicular to the strings, you may not find that sweet spot. On mine, I have to use a slight angle to get everything in tune. I think it must be because of the string thickness needed. Try angling the part of the bridge where the G string goes closer to the tailpiece than the part with the E string.

[buddhu]

Is that sharp by ear or by tuner? Short scale tenors are a nightmare to use with tuners - no sustain and lodas of overtones and harmonics...

The reason I rarely play TB now is the tuning problems with that short scale length at that pitch . Short scale octave mandolins have similar issues.

I can't offer any useful advice, or I'd have followed it myself! But if sympathy helps at all, I feel your pain.

[s1m0n]

Isn't this what compensated bridges are supposed to fix?

[Thomaston]

Yep. But, while I've seen a lot of compensated bridges for a 5-string banjo, I can't remember ever seeing one for a tenor.

[fearfaoin]

Is that sharp by ear or by tuner? Short scale tenors are a nightmare to use with tuners - no sustain and lodas of overtones and harmonics...

Both. The second fret is especially noticeable to
the ear. It makes chording hard, too.

If you're moving the bridge back and forth while keeping it completely perpendicular to the strings, you may not find that sweet spot. On mine, I have to use a slight angle to get everything in tune. I think it must be because of the string thickness needed. Try angling the part of the bridge where the G string goes closer to the tailpiece than the part with the E string.

Oh, I've got it almost at a 45 degree angle to keep
the E in tune. I'm just stuck because I'm already at
the tailpiece on the G side and I still need more
distance for the G to be right.

Isn't this what compensated bridges are supposed to fix?

I was considering a Moon bridge but I'm worried that I'll
still be butting up against the tailpiece on the G side.

I was thinking about an adjustable tailpiece like this:
http://www.stewmac.com/shop/Bridges,_ta ... piece.html
But I'm not sure what exactly are you adjusting? The
height? If so, that might help me get the bridge closer.

Or maybe a shorter one like this:
http://www.stewmac.com/shop/Bridges,_ta ... piece.html
Though, I don't know about the whole "no knot" thing.

This looks interesting:
http://www.janetdavismusic.com/ometenortp.html

[Thomaston]

My tenor came with the no-knot tailpiece. Once I switched to one that gave some downward pressure on the bridge, I actually needed less of an angle on the bridge. I'm not sure why that is, but I don't think a no-knot would help.
It's strange that you're having such a problem here, as I've always heard good things about Deering. Having the bridge at a 45 degree angle seems way excessive. Is there any problems with the action, maybe a slightly bowed neck? You may be best off heading over to www.banjohangout.org. There's a forum there specifically for set-up that may be able to help you more.

[Paul Groff]

Hi,

I may be missing something but from the description of your symptoms could there be a problem with the nut slot for the G string? If your nut was not cut to fit heavy gauge strings, the G string could be riding high so that when the open string is in tune, the fretted notes on that string are sharp. Just a possibility to consider. There could be other setup issues including tailpiece type and downpressure (as mentioned), head tension, neck relief (truss rod adjustment), neck angle (coordinator rods) etc. I know there are some experienced banjo luthiers in NC, you might find some shops and names by searching the banjo hangout site (already suggested).

Good luck!

PG

[s1m0n]

Hi,

I may be missing something but from the description of your symptoms could there be a problem with the nut slot for the G string? If your nut was not cut to fit heavy gauge strings, the G string could be riding high so that when the open string is in tune, the fretted notes on that string are sharp. Just a possibility to consider.

Yeah, wot he said!

[fearfaoin]

I may be missing something but from the description of your symptoms could there be a problem with the nut slot for the G string?

Interesting. I was going to take it in for a fret
dress anyway. I guess I'll do so sooner rather
than later. I was having so much fun I didn't
want to be without it too long, but I guess I
have to bite the old bullet...

[Thomaston]

Hi,

I may be missing something but from the description of your symptoms could there be a problem with the nut slot for the G string? If your nut was not cut to fit heavy gauge strings, the G string could be riding high so that when the open string is in tune, the fretted notes on that string are sharp. Just a possibility to consider. There could be other setup issues including tailpiece type and downpressure (as mentioned), head tension, neck relief (truss rod adjustment), neck angle (coordinator rods) etc. I know there are some experienced banjo luthiers in NC, you might find some shops and names by searching the banjo hangout site (already suggested).

Good luck!

PG

That's an excellent point!
Funny how they call these things Irish tenor but then set them up and string them up for CGDA tuning. I remember taking a file to my bridge when I first tried to use GDAE tuning.

[fearfaoin]

Funny how they call these things Irish tenor but then set them up and string them up for CGDA tuning. I remember taking a file to my bridge when I first tried to use GDAE tuning.

Oh, so they're not usually meant for GDAE
out of the factory? Interesting. In what
context would you use CGDA?

Does that mean the bass string in CGDA
is a fourth above the G in GDAE or a fifth
below it?

[crookedtune]

Hey Nathan! Greg Hanson, in his shop downtown, can fix you up right. He's a first-class luthier, and also a tenor banjo player. Very nice guy.

[fearfaoin]

Hey Nathan! Greg Hanson, in his shop downtown, can fix you up right. He's a first-class luthier, and also a tenor banjo player. Very nice guy.

Ooo, thanks for the tip, I didn't know about that shop.
I'll be near there for the NCSU session today.

[Thomaston]

Funny how they call these things Irish tenor but then set them up and string them up for CGDA tuning. I remember taking a file to my bridge when I first tried to use GDAE tuning.

Oh, so they're not usually meant for GDAE
out of the factory? Interesting. In what
context would you use CGDA?

Does that mean the bass string in CGDA
is a fourth above the G in GDAE or a fifth
below it?

CGDA is the tuning used for Dixieland & New Orlean's jazz playing. It's a higher tuning, like putting a capo on the 5th fret of a GDAE-tuned banjo. Here's a nice example:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zqRKjPSKWbM