Practice flute

[Maihcol]

Serious answer - both Dixon and Hammy are plain cylinders and have the attendant tuning problems in the second octave. I would advise against them, though the Hammy is indubitably the better of the two.)

I presume this is the practise flute Hammy makes with an aluminium body and a short polymer head? I remember him saying that he puts a taper in the head to help pull those top of second octave notes up...So his wouldn't be a plain cylinder.

Garry

[Stuporman]

The Hammy practice flute has no noticeable tuning issues in the 2 octaves, and for me requires no special lipping with the embouchure to play in tune. It has an embouchure cut that will necessitate very little adjustment for moving to a wooden flute. It is ugly, the tone is surprisingly good and it hits a nice hard bottom D. My Tipple with the lip plate and wedge has the older round embouchure cut, which is quite different from any wooden flute I've tried(I haven't tried all that many). It too has surprisingly good tone. The fingers on my D Tipple are quite a bit larger and more spread out than on the aluminum/delrin Hammy, so that could be an issue if the kids are younger, just as it could be on many wooden flutes. The newer Tipples have a more traditional embouchure cut that I would love to try but haven't, as I have for the most part devoted myself to playing one flute for the time being. Either of the two is better for me than the 3 piece conical flute made by Dixon. Barring finger size as an issue, The Tipple or the Hammy would be perfect for your purposes.

[Denny]

I remember him saying that he puts a taper in the head to help pull those top of second octave notes up

I don't think that he said it here.

And it isn't mentioned on the Practice Flute page on his site.

[garyfitz123]

I really wish Gary would get back to us to answer all of our questions. Who are the students? Why are they taking the class? Do these folks (children or adults) want to take the class or are they required or being made to take this class? Also, how rich is Gary? There is such little cost to PVC flutes, comparatively speaking, that Gary could get someone to make PVC flutes and also reward the students with practice flutes once they have shown progress and interest. Could Gary afford for a student to lose a flute? Who is actually paying for these flutes? Is Gary buying them and then selling them at cost to the students? I always think everyone is of modest means and I'm often mistaken.

Apologies for not getting back, but unfortunately teaching music is not my only means of making money, and I was stuck in work all day. The students are 7-10 yr olds, and they go to the class by choice, not requirement. It is my idea to get maybe 3 or 4 practice flutes so that interested students can borrow one, and try it out for a term. it is hard for parents to justify the cost of a flute, even the very reasonable M&E flutes, when the child may not stick at it. I had a bad experience of having a Ganley flute as my first flute, which was incredibly hard to play, and I do not wish this experience on any child!

[Doug_Tipple]

I really wish Gary would get back to us to answer all of our questions. Who are the students? Why are they taking the class? Do these folks (children or adults) want to take the class or are they required or being made to take this class? Also, how rich is Gary? There is such little cost to PVC flutes, comparatively speaking, that Gary could get someone to make PVC flutes and also reward the students with practice flutes once they have shown progress and interest. Could Gary afford for a student to lose a flute? Who is actually paying for these flutes? Is Gary buying them and then selling them at cost to the students? I always think everyone is of modest means and I'm often mistaken.

Apologies for not getting back, but unfortunately teaching music is not my only means of making money, and I was stuck in work all day. The students are 7-10 yr olds, and they go to the class by choice, not requirement. It is my idea to get maybe 3 or 4 practice flutes so that interested students can borrow one, and try it out for a term. it is hard for parents to justify the cost of a flute, even the very reasonable M&E flutes, when the child may not stick at it. I had a bad experience of having a Ganley flute as my first flute, which was incredibly hard to play, and I do not wish this experience on any child!

Hello Gary,
It has already been mentioned that my flutes have larger tone holes, and the low D flute probably would not be the best choice for 7-10 year old students. I make smaller flutes in a variety of keys that would be better for students in that age group. Jem Hammond in Wales also makes a very nice high D piccolo for not much money that might be perfect for your needs. Best wishes.

[crookedtune]

Yes, a room full of 7- to 10-year-olds with piccolos. Yeah, that's it.

[Maihcol]

I remember him saying that he puts a taper in the head to help pull those top of second octave notes up

I don't think that he said it here.

And it isn't mentioned on the Practice Flute page on his site.

I remember him talking about it some years ago on the Woodenflute list. That list doesn't have an archive search enabled...so you'll just have to trust my memory! It wouldn't be a full Boehm type taper or anything - but enough to give those top notes a leg up. It's the only way those top of 2nd octave notes could be better in tune...

Garry

[Maihcol]

Tipple but yer in Belfast....

no, he is in galway.....
marin

Ok, I think I've worked this one out...

Marin, you're probably thinking of Sam Murray, from Belfast but now based in Galway.
Hammy, also from Belfast is now based in Cork.
The original poster, however, is still in Belfast.

Garry.

[kkrell]

Nope, nothing found in my archives of the Flutemakers or Woodenflute list.

However,

Since then I have completely redesigned the practise flute, and it is now made of aluminium tubing with a nylon mouth piece, which we have recently redesigned to make the practice flute more repsonsive and with better internal tuning

This seems to indicate that the mouth piece was modified to accomplish the new results.

Kevin Krell

[jemtheflute]

@Maihcol et al: in an all-cylindrical flute it is not just the higher notes of the 2nd 8ve that are flat, but ALL of it, from the oxx xxx D up. How much so will vary with actual bore diameter/length ratio and overall design, but it IS so. Sure, if the flatness is not extreme one may lip the notes in - when I first tried making conduit tube flutes years ago I was unconsciously doing exactly that, thought I was doing OK.....then showed some of my efforts to Mike McGoldrick who had a toot, said he loved the sound on them but they were all flat in the 2nd 8ve..... made me re-appraise (and ultimately give up until I learned about the wedge much more recently) - he was right, of course. I also showed them to Chris Wilkes who said much the same.....watched me playing one with rather better intonation than he had achieved and said, "Ah, I see what you're doing," and described how he had seen me adjusting my embouchure........

Having to lip notes into tune to the extent that is necessary on any all-cylinder instrument, however good a tone it may produce and however readily with a well-cut embouchure, is exactly why such an instrument is a bad idea for learners. Either they will play horribly out of tune (and maybe acquire a mental habit that that intonation is appropriate which will have to be adjusted later) or they will learn to lip in and then have to re-learn embouchure habits when they upgrade instruments. Not ideal scenarios!

As for Hammy's practice flutes, I have only met/tried one - presumably of the original design - and it (noticeably though not extremely) had the classic cylinder tuning problems. I haven't met/tried a more recent one if he has modified them as described/speculated about above.

[mutepointe]

I'm not intending to hijack this thread but folks seem so interested in these students, this seemed like the best place. I am ignorant on the topic of formal music lessons and especially group lessons and even more especially for children. Will the particulars of a flute (besides size, excellent idea about piccolos) being straight or conical bore matter much? I didn't get the impression that these kids were on the virtuoso track and I can't imagine that they would do a lot of second octave work in a one term class. I would think that the big goal would be to get these kids to play a simple folk tune by Spring Recital time. I could see if a single child with a talent was going to get individual lessons then the best instrument would be necessary and the best embouchure training would be given but I would think that Gary is just hoping that these kids will be able to make some half decent sounds no matter how they manage to accomplish that feat. Wouldn't each child's embouchure have to be analyzed and reviewed up the wazoo over time to ensure consistency, especially with their changing bodies, and wouldn't this be totally beyond group lessons?

[Denny]

Tipple but yer in Belfast....

no, he is in galway.....
marin

Ok, I think I've worked this one out...

Marin, you're probably thinking of Sam Murray, from Belfast but now based in Galway.
Hammy, also from Belfast is now based in Cork.
The original poster, however, is still in Belfast.

Garry.

I was just reading the OP's location

He could be in Cork, an' just tryin' to throw off the collectors

I'm not intending to hijack this thread but folks seem so interested in these students, this seemed like the best place

Why do you preface so? There is nothing wrong with starting on a Pat O.

[Maihcol]

@Maihcol et al: in an all-cylindrical flute it is not just the higher notes of the 2nd 8ve that are flat, but ALL of it, from the oxx xxx D up. How much so will vary with actual bore diameter/length ratio and overall design, but it IS so.

It's alright Jem, I know this! I just wanted to say that Hammy's practise flute has - as I understood from what he said on the Woodenflute list years back (it's in those archives alright Kevin), it has a short, simple taper at the appropriate angle which helps to pull up the particularly flat notes at the top of the 2nd octave - but of course doesn't have the full effect of a proper Boehm type taper - or else the instruments would be too much work for the price. So his practise flutes aren't a plain cylinder. Doing this would also have a beneficial effect on the rest of the 2nd octave notes. You pointed this out in your post above when you said Hammyś was "indubitably the better of the two".

I remember Hammy posting about this on Woodenflute because it prompted me to do some flute-making experiments along those lines myself - which I subsequently did. I used aluminium tube for the body, 22mm outside diameter, 19mm inside diameter (same as a Boehm flute) and combined this with a delrin head with a full Boehm type taper. They work very well indeed but the wall thickness of the body is too little for the E so I added a short sleeve at that section to increase the wall thickness there and reinforce that note. Of course due to the full Boehm taper, they are properly in tune throughout. These are easier to make than the conical flutes but are still a lot of work.

I wanted to see how short I could make the head to reduce the amount of work involved. I then gradually shortened the delrin head from the body end while at the same time lengthening the aluminium body (to keep the flute the same overall length) until I started to run into tuning problems...just to see how far I could go before that would become a noticeable problem. Then I reversed and made the head longer again till those problems disappeared completely.

However, a short simple taper in the head area will still help to sharpen those flat second octave notes as compared to a plain cylinder flute. This is an improvement rather than the full solution, due to the cost involved.

Garry.

[jemtheflute]

Thanks for the explanation, Garry - very helpful. Not being a turner myself, though, I kinda wonder why, once one has the design sorted/made an appropriate reamer, making a full length delrin or ebonite Bohm head with a socket to fit over the aluminium tube should be significantly more expensive than making a diddy-short one? - About the same operating time, I'd have thought, and only marginally dearer in materials.

[DOC]

Have you thought about Desi Seery in Bray Co. Wicklow? His flutes are fine, almost un-breakable and are more than a beginners flute. They are more so in the mid-range price bracket but they seem to hold there value very well.