discussion for learning tunes on thesession.org

[TerryH]

The topic is often discussed on this forum. Here is link to discussion on thesession.org about learning tunes and getting the "feel".
http://www.thesession.org/discussions/display/23739

[johnkerr]

The biggest thing I've discovered about learning tunes from thesession.org is that you should never trust any tune setting you find there.

[benhall.1]

Dead right John. Unless, of course, it's one that I posted.

[Cathy Wilde]

The biggest thing I've discovered about learning tunes from thesession.org is that you should never trust any tune setting you find there.

!! Me, too!!!

[kenny]

Depends who posts it. I get fed up with people slagging off the tunes at "thesession".

[NicoMoreno]

The key is to check the comments. Versions by kenny and ceolachan I trust (and verify and have never found problems with!) as well as a couple others. A lot of tunes, particularly ones that were put up in the early stages, really aren't that good, or are just bland session versions, but there are also a lot of good versions, too. And if you really don't like the setting, provide your own in the comments!

Best is always to compare to a recording or with a person, anyway.

[chris_coreline]

when you guys say 'bad' do you mean actual, bona fiede wrong notes / keys / phrases or simpley 'over simplified' form the pure version?
because over simplified im used to, the dots arnt the tune, the dots are just the skeliton of the tune.
however, if were talking about actual wrong notes, then i may have repitoire issues.

[benhall.1]

Chris, if you've learnt the dots from the session.org, you must have them wrong, because the vast majority are just that - wrong. Sorry, Kenny (regarding your gripe that people snipe at the tunes section of the session.org), but there it is.

Kenny's postings are an exception. He knows what he's doing and he takes the trouble to get them right. But there are not very many who know how to get them right or take the trouble to get them right. No Cause for Alarm would be another decent tune poster. Our own MTGuru has posted tunes over there and they are also, of course, pretty much spot on.

But, whoever has posted them, I wouldn't ever learn a tune off the dots from the session.org. Get 'em off a decent vid from Comhaltas, or - if you know who to look out for - off YouTube, but best of all, off a real, live musician. The tune will be more solidly 'yours' that way.

Often, btw, it's not an especially good idea to get tunes off a favourite CD. This is because top musicians often want to record a setting that is deliberately unusual and unique to them. So, from a session point of view, if you learn one of those unusual versions, you'll have it 'wrong'.

[MarkP]

if you've learnt the dots from the session.org, you must have them wrong

you're over generalising, there's plenty of standard tunes where you can find the bare bones right enough - once you've also read all the 'comments', tried the alternatives/settings/ornaments that other people have posted, listen to some recordings, and listened really hard when people you know are playing the tune with you.

There's a few pretty unorhodox settings around here, so learning to spot the difference and being flexible is always going to stand you in good stead. Imagining that you ought to be looking for the 'right' version isn't going to help near as much.

top musicians often want to record a setting that is deliberately unusual and unique to them

by the same token half the videos you mention on Comhaltas are competition pieces by young players, lovely stuff of course but their teachers have probably worked hard to make sure they put in the technical variation and interest.

The tune will be more solidly 'yours' that way

Is it going to be any more 'yours' learning it off the old guy in the pub than learning it off a video? Comparing the guy in the pub with the video and thesesion might help though.

[benhall.1]

you're over generalising, there's plenty of standard tunes where you can find the bare bones right enough - once you've also read all the 'comments', tried the alternatives/settings/ornaments that other people have posted, listen to some recordings, and listened really hard when people you know are playing the tune with you.

Um ... that was exactly my point.

by the same token half the videos you mention on Comhaltas are competition pieces by young players, lovely stuff of course but their teachers have probably worked hard to make sure they put in the technical variation and interest.

That's why I mostly learn 'new' tunes from sessions or from real, live musicians. And, where I don't, as I have said here and elsewhere on the forum, I always look for several different videos, rather than just one, and probably look up the history of the tune elsewhere as well. But those tunes are, in any case in the small minority. Not only that, but, in fact, an awful lot of videos on the Comhaltas site are from session musicians. If you go for the session tune section, which contains hundreds of tunes, the recordings (not videos) are of real sessions. Great stuff it is.

Learn 'em live, that's the message.

[nigelgatherer]

One of the good things about thesession.org is that lots of people contribute. This means that in the tune comments sections, you'll get alternative settings of tunes, references to recorded versions, additional background information. With time, you figure out which transcribers are worth checking out, and which aren't. Like other web resources, in time you learn to do your own research, seek out recordings, and direct questions to more experienced players.

One of the bad things about thesession.org is that lots of people contribute. This means that you'll get well-meaning people posting tunes because they want to be part of the site, but perhaps they'll have a limited abilty with ABC notation, or of how the site should work.. You regularly get people submitting their fledgling compositions, or well-known tunes which have been on the site for years. I used to get annoyed by this, but really, there's little point.

To use the site to its best advantage, in my opinion, you should start with tunes that you've heard already (in a session, from a friend, on a record). Then search for it in the tunes database, check that it's the right one (we all know there are often several tunes with the same name), and then proceed: listening, reading, listening.

[MarkP]

an awful lot of videos on the Comhaltas site are from session musicians. If you go for the session tune section, which contains hundreds of tunes, the recordings (not videos) are of real sessions. Great stuff it is

Useful certainly, but there's also a certain amount of criticism that goes around (from some quarters) about the influence those rehearsed setting/sets have on the perceptions of what's usual for a tune. There's some slightly odd ones in there (some of book transcriptions differ slightly from the recordings) and some slightly odd sets (made up to fit three on the page by adding an odd tune to a common set of two). You might find the first article here interesting... (the others are more random)

http://muse.jhu.edu/login?uri=/journals ... eming.html ...or...
http://inscribe.iupress.org/doi/abs/10. ... alCode=jfr (sorry, the full document is not open access but you get the gist)

http://www.thesession.org/discussions/display/22561

http://comhaltas.ie/links

http://www.cduniverse.com/search/xx/mus ... +Tunes.htm

PS. I'm not quibbling by the way, I found the CCE resources very useful, just agreeing with you that listening, asking around, understanding variation is a good thing.

[Rob Sharer]

One man's opinion....


Several of my students have turned up at lesson with versions of well-known tunes that were a) learned off session.org charts, and b) were seriously naff. This has not always been the case, of course, but there have been a few real stoppers along the way. I'm not sure crowd sourcing is a great way to get your music. Can be helpful as part of a balanced diet, but not to be relied upon as any sort of authority.


Rob

[kenny]

If so many of the tunes posted at "thesession" are "wrong", please tell us all where we can find the "right" versions.

[Rob Sharer]

If so many of the tunes posted at "thesession" are "wrong", please tell us all where we can find the "right" versions.

Elsewhere, I guess.

Look, mate, it's obvious you're involved over there and feel you have a personal stake in how thesession is viewed. While I appreciate that, I'm not going to sugar-coat my own personal opinion to save anyone's feelings. All I can do is report my own experience and let it stand at that. Cheers,



Rob