Key of A PVC Alto Whistle Scale Problems

[SPOOK0999]

Hi, I'm not sure if this is the right forum to post this but maybe if it is you can relocate it.

Anyway..

Tonight I made a Key of A Alto Whistle using the instructions given here: http://www.ggwhistles.com/howto/

The measurements of my whistle are:
Length from Tip to end: 15" or 381MM
The PVC bore: 3/4 of an inch
The thickness of the pipe: 4mm

Okay, the problem is that the scale is wrong. The scale for an A whistle is A, B, C#, D, E, F#, G#. (As far as I know)
And I'm not quite sure what is being played when I go up the scale of the whistle. But It's all off.

If you need more information than ask.

Thanks!
God bless

[Feadoggie]

This is as good a place as any to talk about whistle making. Some clarifying questions first.

Did you measure the bore of your PVC at 3/4"? Or, are you using 3/4" PVC pipe in which the 3/4" designation is a nominal figure? How far off is the tuning? Are all the notes off? Does the tuning start with a good bell note and get worse as you progress up the scale?

Guido's designs do work as advertised - provided you have the right material. I have a couple of his whistles and they work quite well. The low A specs designate a pipe with a 20mm outside diameter and a 17mm inside diameter(not easy to find in the US). That means a ~3mm wall thickness. If you have such a pipe and follow the dimensions given in the plans you should get pretty close. If you do not have pipe with those dimensions you need to re-calculate everything.

Feadoggie

[Scott McCallister]

it would be well if you could also play the scale against a quartz tuner to see how far off you are on each pitch. This way you have a definitive analysis and can determine which way to adjust each hole or if you need to start over.

[SPOOK0999]

3/4 is what the pipe said on it.
And the tuning is really weird. Both top and bottom note is A and it sounds good but everything in between is off. So it does get worse up the scale.

The inside diameter is 21-1/2mm and the wall thickness is 4mm. The hole outside plus inside is 27-1/2mm.
After measuring that I'm quite sure that this is the problem. However I'm not quite sure how to calculate everything to fit that pipe. Should I try the measurements for the Low Whistles? I'm not looking for a perfect whistle.

I have made around five Soprano whistles in the past in all different keys and have had little to no trouble.

[Seonachan]

Sounds like you're using PVC schedule 40 3/4" pipe? I've used that to make a low D, and I'd imagine an alto A might be too short a whistle for that bore size. The holes would probably have to be too big/deep to be usable. You could try the (nominal) 1/2" size, but I'd recommend the 3/4" CPVC, which has an internal diameter of about 17 or 18 mm and isn't as thick as the PVC40.

In my own whistlemaking attempts I've found the following materials work best:

for soprano whistles: CPVC 1/2"
for alto whistles: CPVC 3/4", PVC 1/2"
for low whistles: CPVC 1", PVC 3/4"

and in general the CPVC works better for me than PVC schedule 40, but if you can find the thin-walled PVC (200 psi), it's worth experimenting with.

(I've also tried Sil-O-Flex: don't bother unless you find Clarkes too pure and sweet sounding )

[SPOOK0999]

So your saying that the current pipe that I have would work well for Low Whistles?

And thank you for that other information. It will come in handy.

[Feadoggie]

Well! That's what I thought might be the case. You need a new piece of pipe to work with. And some new measurements.

Seonachan has given you good advice on what pipes he is using. My personal preference for making a low A whistle is the (nominal) 1/2" white PVC rated at 600 psi (easily found at any Lowes in the US). It has an internal diameter of just a hair over 15mm. If the plumbing department isn't convenient, you could try the electrical department and use 1/2" (again, it's nominal) grey PVC conduit. It works very well too with an inner diameter of just about 16mm. That's what Glenn Schultz used to make his fabled Water Weasel low A's. These are however thicker walled tubing than the CPVC Seonachen suggested the Gonzato style head design may not work as well as it does on thin walled tubing. The wall thickness of te pipe determines the windway height after all.

After measuring that I'm quite sure that this is the problem. However I'm not quite sure how to calculate everything to fit that pipe.

I'd suggest you pick a pipe that's going to give you a good bore to length ratio for the key you want to make. Take your pick from the three suggestions given above. Then use either the flutomat or TWCalc to design the rest.

For the Flutomat go to: http://www.cwo.com/~ph_kosel/flutomat.html
For TWCalc go to: http://www.kingsmills.us/twcalc/twcalc.htm Daniel has provided an instruction page too.

Once you have a design you can start by making your whistle head first using a somewhat longer than necessary piece of pipe. Then determine the proper length of pipe to produce the bell note by cutting off the end of the pipe in small increments until you have the good solid bell note. Everything else in your design will be relative to that length. Lay out the tone holes from the bottom up drilling and tuning as you go. It might take a couple tries but you will get it right quickly enough. And it should be a fun and informative process.

Oh yeah, the pipe you are using (21mm i.d.) would be more suitable for a low D.

Let us know what turns out.

Feadoggie

[MTGuru]

Just thinking out loud ... Assuming that the existing holes are too small for that bore and scale, and since the bell pitch is good ... Can the OP simply ream out the existing holes one at a time? May not be the ideal bore:length ratio, but at least it would be playable.

[Feadoggie]

Just thinking out loud ... Assuming that the existing holes are too small for that bore and scale, and since the bell pitch is good ... Can the OP simply ream out the existing holes one at a time? May not be the ideal bore:length ratio, but at least it would be playable.

Sure, we didn't go there did we? We didn't even ask about hole sizes, did we?
Still, also thinking out loud, such an exercise still won't result in a low A whistle that performs well. With a a +21mm bore the high notes would be a bear to hit, the bell note would be weak and the second octave tuning would still have issues. Better to start anew with a proper bore diameter. But that's just my opinion.

If the whistle is made there is no harm experimenting with hole size. Go for it and learn as you go about it!

Feadoggie

[SPOOK0999]

Thank you all for the information.

But, I just got done making a low F with the pipe I have and it turned out really good. In tune and everything. So I'm going to continue using the pipe I have to make low whistles. And I might try the half inch later.

Here's a picture of the whistle:



The whistle plays pretty nice and sounds good. It has a good balance between clear and airy tone. (The way I like it)

[Feadoggie]

Fantastic!

[SPOOK0999]

Fantastic!

Thank you.

Note: The picture makes the bottom holes look a lot more uneven than they are. The two last holes are just a little off. But sometimes it's hard to get them perfect.

[Dana DiAnda]

I have question about using the flutomat page ( http://www.cwo.com/~ph_kosel/flutomat.html ) to make a whistle.
If I enter the diameter, wall thickness, and hole sizes, the first number I'm given is the distance of the embouchure from the end. On a whistle, should I think of that as the distance from the lip to the end? If so, does it matter that a flute embouchure is farther from the block than a whistle lip is (giving a flute a longer internal length [block to end] overall)?

[hans]

That distance depends a lot on the size and the wall height of the window/embouchure hole. Do not put too much trust on the computed figure! Start out with a bit of extra length, then cut to length using a tuner. Only if you got a correct length measure the distances of all the tone holes, and drill them first a bit smaller, then widen each in turn to be in tune, starting from the bottom/last hole. If you use a tuning slide/joint, you can avoid having to cut the precise length before starting on the other tone holes. Instead you can shorten the body as needed later, allowing for extra length for the sliding.

[Feadoggie]

If I enter the diameter, wall thickness, and hole sizes, the first number I'm given is the distance of the embouchure from the end. On a whistle, should I think of that as the distance from the lip to the end? If so, does it matter that a flute embouchure is farther from the block than a whistle lip is (giving a flute a longer internal length [block to end] overall)?

Yes, you measure from the edge of the blade/labium on a whistle versus the middle of the embouchure on the flute. One way to think it is that's where the generated sound wave starts?

If you follow the suggestions made by Hans and myself earlier in this thread you'll do well. Flute/Whistle calculators are not infallible. Actually they are quite accurate but we whistle makers are not as accurate as the calculators. There are "fudge factors" or "correction factors" in the equations which do not usually describe our individual whistle craftsmanship. What to do? Start with a tube longer than necessary. Sneak up on the proper length for the bell note. Then layout the tone holes starting from the bottom and work up, tuning as you go. It's a tried and true method and it will give you the best chance of success.

Feadoggie