Why are whistles in Eb and Bb?

[Whistlin' Will]

Sorry if this sounds like a stupid question , but I was wondering why some whistles come in the keys of Eb and Bb. Why not E and B? And yes, I know it's possible to get or modify a whistle to turn it into one of those keys, but I was wondering why they are manufactured in those keys. Do they accompany certain instruments better or more easily than other keys? Is there any reason at all?

[Kypfer]

There's a range of reasons ... yes "they accompany certain instruments better or more easily than other keys", also, given the whistle's limited range of 2 octaves, assuming one wanted to play a certain tune, which had a relatively wide range of notes, in a specific key, the only way to "fit all the notes in" may be to use a Bb instrument and play in F (guessing a bit here, on keys).

I know that, "within reason", a whistle can be played almost fully chromatically, but why make work for yourself using multiple cross-fingering, when, for the expense of a few $$$/£££ (or whatever) one can use a second (or third) whistle and maybe one or two commonly used "naturals".

Just my tuppence-worth ... I'm sure the more experienced will find other reasons

[Feadoggie]

I was wondering why they are manufactured in those keys. Do they accompany certain instruments better or more easily than other keys? Is there any reason at all?

Eb and Bb are the natural keys for other marching band instruments. So that may have given rise to those keys being manufactured originallly. The Bb is also helpful playing with some pipes. The whistle is a diatonic instrument. It is designed to play an eight note major scale starting with the designated bell note - you know, do re me fa so la ti do (a deer...). Each whistle plays easily in two keys the "named" key as well as another a fourth above that. So a D whistle plays a D scale and a G scale easily. So to accompany other instruments and singers in various keys you need to have whistles in the appropriate keys. Just like diatonic harmonicas. I won't go in to relative minor keys or modes for now.

You can check out Dale Wisely's take on this topic over on the main C&F website thanks to Binkie the Wonder Possum. http://www.chiffandfipple.com/whistlekeys.html You will also find on that page Dale's tin whistle table which may have been at the genesis of this whole internet community way back when.

So I don't really know why they started manufacturing Eb and Bb whistles (I'm thinking Gens here) but the reason they continued to manufacture them is Mary Bergin's fault - Feadoga Stain I and II, IMHO.

Feadoggie

[crookedtune]

Also, you'll occasionally find a session where everyone tunes up a half step. D tunes are played in the key of Eb, etc... So that one's a good whistle to have around.

The Bb is most used at home for mellower solo practice.

[mutepointe]

Because there are songs written in Eb and Bb. Some of us use whistles for all kinds of music. I don't even play ITM. When a person is playing solo, the key doesn't matter so much (but it still does). When a person is playing with a group of people, the key matters big time.

[s1m0n]

In the wooden flute era there were two milieus that wind instruments were most commonly called upon to play in; these being an orchestra, and a military marching band. The orchestral flute was the instrument we think of as being in D, but with low C and C# on the foot making it possible to play in C using the other keys and some cross-fingerings. This is the ancestor of C and D whistles, if you like.

However, marching bands were often brass-dominated, and brass instruments like flat keys. The military fife was already in Bb in the same octave as a Bb whistle, so that's the most likely inspiration for Bb whistles. Bb an octave lower - in the flute rather than fife octave - is a bit low, particularly if you're going by bell note rather than bottom note. A Bb flute is at the edge of playability for human hands on a simple system flute, and low notes don't carry well outdoors, anyway. An Eb flute is brighter & easier to both play and hear, and has Ab and Bb as the fourth and fifth notes of the scale, making these the two next easiest keys to play in. These are common keys for brass bands. As well, Eb is very close in size to D, which seems to be about where human hand size and the physics of pitch converge. So, Eb became a key often used for flutes that would get used in marching bands. I suspect that these - the 'band' fife and flute keys - are what gave us those keys in a generation whistles.

[MTGuru]

Sorry if this sounds like a stupid question

It's not a stupid question at all. In fact, it's a very good question, and the answer is not at all obvious.

Of course, whistles do come in any key, including E and B. But you're certainly thinking of the Generation range which set the modern standard for the prevailing high whistle keys.

C and D (and maybe G) are pretty self-evident, as these are good whistle keys for playing with other simple diatonic concert-pitch music and instruments, such as in folk music, Morris music, etc.

As for the rest, I think Feadoggie (and now Simon) has nailed part of it with the mention of band instruments. For historical reasons, band and orchestral winds are pitched in mostly flat keys: F, Bb, Eb. Think clarinet, saxophone, trumpet, horn, trombone, etc. And while it might be odd to think of playing whistles in a brass band, you have to consider the original target market.

As an English company, Generation would certainly have had in mind the tradition of the English village band with its hodge-podge collection of accordions, concertinas, and handed-off band instruments. Just look at something like The Oyster Band for an example. There's also the Northern Irish marching flute tradition, with flutes and fifes pitched in Bb. In these contexts, offering Bb, Eb, and F whistles makes good sense.

This is a good example of the influence of Gesunkenes Kulturgut* - one of my favorite very useful folkloristics concepts. There's also a lateral shift into Irish trad in this case. And once adopted, the Gen whistle range of keys becomes a standard in its own right.

* You'll have to Google this. There's a brief explanation in Wikipedia here, but only in German.

It's also interesting to speculate on why there's no Gen A whistle for the Scottish market. I'd guess that two main reasons would be 1. GHB pitch is actually intermediate between A and Bb, for which pulling a Gen Bb whistle flat would suffice; and 2. Whistles in Scottish trad are a relatively recent phenomenon which post-dates the Generation line.

[ Note: I crossed posts with Simon here. ]

[mutepointe]

Another factor we forgot to mention is the key preference for the vocalist. We must never forget the vocalist. Never.

(My wife is the vocalist.)

[s1m0n]

You're still not allowed to play a G gen anywhere near me.

[Whistlin' Will]

It's not a stupid question at all. In fact, it's a very good question, and the answer is not at all obvious.

That's good to know.

Thank you all for your quick responses, everyone. I can now go to sleep at night without staying awake for hours, wondering...

[Arch_Angel]

First off En(atural) and Bn whistles are more rare and the reason is the same for most instruments. Consider the keys of a D whistle
0-C# 0.5-C
1-Bn 1.5-Bb
2-A_ 2.5-G#
3-G_ 3.5-__
4-F# 4.5-F
5-En 5.5-Eb
6-D_

This keeps most keys in there natural position. When shifted to b keys the results are:
0 D, C#/ A, G#
1 C, Bn/ G, F#
2 Bb, A/ F, En
3.G#, _/ Eb, _
4 G, F#/ D, C#
5 F, En/ C, B
6 Eb / Bb
This keeps most the keys in Natural vs #/b. You will notice that even most music is designed to accommodate this. If your not musically aware there ane no E or B #s. This comes from the original 7 keys and when the 5 #/b-s were added to the concert scale.

I hope this helped

[Arch_Angel]

Real quick I wanted to add the keys of a C Whistle.
0.B, Bb
1.A, G#
2.G, F#
3.F
4.En, Eb
5.D, C#
6.C

I wanted to note this because it is the most natural set up.
If you haven't noticed the 4th hole is never half holed in any key. This is because the note doesn't exist on the Western Scale regardless of the key instrument used.

Happy Whistlin'

[s1m0n]

If you haven't noticed the 4th hole is never half holed in any key. This is because the note doesn't exist on the Western Scale regardless of the key instrument used.

It's probably simpler to note that XXX000 and XXXX00 are already only a semitone apart, so half holing would get you a quarter tone.

[tucson_whistler]

Another factor we forgot to mention is the key preference for the vocalist. We must never forget the vocalist. Never.

(My wife is the vocalist.)

this has been the cause of me buying every extra keyed whistle or flute i have.

it's interesting to me that no one is really mentioning the circle of fifths (although some of the later posts are getting close):

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Circle_of_fifths

cheers,
eric

[Arch_Angel]

If you haven't noticed the 4th hole is never half holed in any key. This is because the note doesn't exist on the Western Scale regardless of the key instrument used.

It's probably simpler to note that XXX000 and XXXX00 are already only a semitone apart, so half holing would get you a quarter tone.

Yeah, I don't normally see things the same way others do. Its a great advantage in my engineering, but it can throw others off. Just like I though about using the following format for the D key.
0. C#
1. Bn 0.5. C_
2. A_ 1.5. Bb
3. G_ 2.5. G#
4. F# 3.5. NA
5. En 4.5. F_
6. D_ 5.5. Eb

This had the advantage of lining up half holes, but the number system seemed screwed up. I like useing OXXOOO, or /OOOOO (C) system, but that takes to long.

D+ 0XXXXX
C# 000000
C_ 0XX000
__ /00000
Bn X00000
Bb X/0000
A_ XX0000
G# XX/000
G_ XXX000
F# XXXX00
F_ XXXX/0
E_ XXXXX0
Eb XXXXX/
D_ XXXXXX

It gets to be too much for my fingers to type. BTW does anybody have a chart with other fingerings for the same notes? Like how there are two ways to create the C-note.