First Low Whistle: Dixon or Susato?

[patrickc]

I would like to get a tuneable Low D, and I can't decide between a Susato and a Dixon, both of which look like the best I can get at my price range. Which would the experienced whistle players here recommend, and if you reccomend a Dixon, which is better: the metal or plastic?

[AlonE]

I would like to get a tuneable Low D, and I can't decide between a Susato and a Dixon, both of which look like the best I can get at my price range. Which would the experienced whistle players here recommend, and if you reccomend a Dixon, which is better: the metal or plastic?

mmmmmmmmm Dixon......

[AvienMael]

I took a quick look at some prices (at today's rate of exchange) to gain some perspective on what you are asking:

Dixon's lowest price on a tunable low D is about $100.09 + shipping.
Susato's Kildare L-series, keyless = $93.90 + shipping.

A Dixon with an aluminum body (which I would recommend over either of the above whistles) is about $144.20 + shipping.

Now my advice: Spend a little more and buy an Alba Vibe. It's very well-made, has a great sound, and it's a very easy player. At a current price of $178.73, it rivals more expensive low D's in the $250-$300+ range, and from a purely business-minded POV, they tend to maintain good resale value. It's also far more durable than most of the other low D's I've come across.

[Feadoggie]

would like to get a tuneable Low D, and I can't decide between a Susato and a Dixon

I have owned both the Susato low D and the tunable polymer Dixon low D. Both are capable whistles. The choice between the two in my mind is very much a matter of taste. But there are notable differences between the two.

The Susato is a very solid molded ABS whistle. They are very hearty and a bit heavier than the Dixon polymer. The Susato has a fairly large beak which some may find uncomfortable. The Susato has rather large holes, especially the BH2 hole which some players may not be able to cover easily. But... the Susato is available with keys to help cover that hole and to help with finger stretch although I don't recommend keys since they reduce your playing options.The Susato is the louder and stronger voiced of the two whistles. The Susato requires more air than the Dixon particularly at the top of the second octave. The Susato, at one time was available with a "knick" or bent head which helped with the long reach for short arms. I don't see one offered on the Kelisheck's web site now though. The Susato is a solid piece of equipment but probably not the most friendly low D whistle for a first time player.

I've only owned the Dixon polymer low D so I can't speak to the aluminum bodied model although they share the same head design and the head, being the noise maker, is the part that matters most in the overall sound. The Dixon is made from a thermo reactive polymer tubing. It is susceptible to extremes of heat. You don't want to leave one in the car on a hot day - they can warp. The Dixon has a pleasant sound some would say it sounds more traditional than the Susato. The Dixon is not particularly loud but loud enough to be enjoyable. The hole sizes are modest and fairly easy to cover which is nice for a first low D. Breath requirements are modest as well and the second octave is not at all shrill. The Dixon is IMO a good starter low D whistle but possibly not the last low D whistle many would want (Goldie, Burke, MK, Copeland, etc).

Then there is the value equation. If the cost is not an issue then disregard these comments. Your profile does not indicate where you live. The Dixon is a British product. The Susato is a product of the USA. Exchange rate apply to imports in either case. But not knowing where you are located I can't tell how you are effected. The Susato is a good value for Americans. The Dixon is a good value if you are in Europe. I bought my Dixons when exchange rates were more favorable than they are today. At that time the Dixon was a "no brainer" decision over a Susato. The cost of a Dixon here in the US is now more than twice what it cost not long ago. If you are in Sumatra, as an example, it won't matter much. In either case I would recommend buying directly from the maker, if that is possible.

Hope that helps.

Feadoggie

[DrPhill]

A very thoughtful and informative response there Feadoggie. I would presume temper your advice a little should the purchaser live in the UK...

.... In either case I would recommend buying directly from the maker, if that is possible.

I live in the UK and made the mistake of buying a whistle direct from a US maker. I thought that it would maximise the profit
going to the maker. First, UK Customs & Excise (Excise? that used to be the term for piracy, did it not?) Levied tax on the whistle value, the post and packaging and the insurance. They then added VAT on to the total price. Royal Mail then levied a charge for a 'package from outside the EU'. And because they had to collect the tax, charged me a handling fee, and then another quid because I had to pick the package up from the post office.

The resulting total addition was about 40% of the whistle price, and made the whistle a lot more expensive than if I had bought from a UK based dealer. I do not think that the maker benefited significantly, but the UK government and the Royal Mail certainly did. So my advice is, if you can, buy from a UK based dealer - then you know what you are going to pay and to whom.

Yes I still feel sore about it

[Hotblack]

The Dixon has a pleasant sound........... The Dixon is not particularly loud but loud enough to be enjoyable. The hole sizes are modest and fairly easy to cover which is nice for a first low D. Breath requirements are modest as well and the second octave is not at all shrill. The Dixon is IMO a good starter low D whistle but possibly not the last low D whistle many would want (Goldie, Burke, MK, Copeland, etc).

Can't comment on the Susato but I concur with Feadoggies comments on the Dixon (I have one). They match my experience of the Dixon.

[patrickc]

For those wondering about what country I live in, I am in the U.S. Specificaly: Georgia, where average temperature is (unfortunately) much higher than it is in Europe.

The aluminium Dixon seems like it is probably the best option, because it is more like higher-end whistles like the Burke or MK, but I'm still not sure.

I've also heard that the Susato can sound a bit more like a recorder than a whistle at times. Is this true?

[mickey66]

All I can say at this time is I like my Dixon low "D" whistle as far a sound goes and the reach is not bad for me. It is a big chunk of plastic tho.....I like the sound of it! Not loud, easy to play cost me $112 shipping incl from England and took one week shipping time.



www.tuxedomusic.com

[Feadoggie]

A very thoughtful and informative response there Feadoggie. I would presume temper your advice a little should the purchaser live in the UK...

Temper, temper! DrPhill you make a good point. I am just as conscious of the plummeting value of the US dollar against other currencies. It might have been better for me to advise that the OP buy "locally" (local retailer/local maker) if possible. The additional tally for exchange rates, taxes, etc. can really effect the end price of an instrument. I do like to buy from the maker because service after the sale is generally better or at least less complicated. I've had retailers dodge their responsibility and refer me back to the maker on a couple occasions. I like the Kelischeks and have never had an issue with any Susato whistle. Tony Dixon has been a straight up guy after the sale as well. But YMMV.

The aluminium Dixon seems like it is probably the best option, because it is more like higher-end whistles like the Burke or MK, but I'm still not sure.

I own/play several Burke low D's. I unfortunately have yet to run into an MK. But.. the aluminum finger tube on the Dixon would not qualify it to be in any way like a Burke (and I assume the MK). The body material isn't the big contributor to the overall tone of the whistle. The head of the whistle is the source of the sound. The Burke and MK head designs are quite a bit different from the Dixon's design. You would probably find a world of difference between the Dixon and the Burke/MK in response, tone and dynamics. If you prefer the aluminum over the polymer, that's great, buy the aluminum model. It does make the body of the whistle more durable and less prone to damage than the polymer body. The Dixon is a nice low D in any case. I am sure you'll like it.

I've also heard that the Susato can sound a bit more like a recorder than a whistle at times. Is this true?

I don't think that is true. It's more of an urban pub myth to me. I've had Susato Kildares from high E down to low D. I also play rec&^%er, both wooden and plastic. None of my Susato whistles sound anything like my rec%^&ers. Susatos don't sound like a Gen or a Feadog but not much like a re)&*^er either. The Susato low D is capable of a variety of timbres. That's one thing I liked about it. The windway is fairly generously sized so you can get a number of effects by playing with your embouchure. That same windway contributes to the higher air requirements over the Dixon though. It's a good whistle and maybe all many players would ever need. I just don't see it as a beginner's whistle. But that's just my personal opinion.

For those wondering about what country I live in, I am in the U.S. Specificaly: Georgia, where average temperature is (unfortunately) much higher than it is in Europe.

patrickc, depending on where you are in Georgia, Brasstown, NC, where Susato whistles hail from, isn't far away from you. Gladly both Susato and Dixon whistles are widely available in the US. And welcome to C&F.

Feadoggie

[trill]

Greetings + welcome !

I've played both. I found the Dixon (plastic) to have an easier reach, smaller holes (easier to cover completely) , and required less air. I bought mine used from a board member for under $100.

trill

[Ian Parfitt]

Hi Patrickc.

I also own a Dixon Polymer and a Susato Low D. The Dixon is an early non-tunable model the Susato is a new tunable whistle. The Dixon contrary to the majority of opinion requires a lot of air unless tweeked (See the thread on C&F). I can't comment on the Dixon tunable models but I understand there is a new model in the offing (conical bore, again comment on C&F about this) and it may be worth waiting until these are on the market.

The Susato (£65.00 from the Big Whistle Store UK) does have a different finger reach that I am just coming to terms with ( had the whistle for just under a month). The mouth piece is large and after playing the Dixon takes some getting used to. The sound is all together different from the Dixon, much stronger and bright and has a greater range. I would say it is not a whistle for the beginner, maybe something else would suit such as a Gonzatso or Shearwater, but I digress.

As a first low D I would say the Dixons are a good choice. As the saying goes Horses for Courses.

Bye the way welcome to the forum. I am sure that you will find the answer to your question here.

Ian

[AvienMael]

[quote="Feadoggie] The Susato is a very solid molded ABS whistle... The Dixon is made from a thermo reactive polymer tubing. It is susceptible to extremes of heat. Feadoggie[/quote]

ABS, or, acrylonitrile butadiene styrene IS a "thermo-reactive polymer." It also happens to have one of the LOWER melting points of ALL "thermo-reactive polymers" (next to PCL, which is the basis of many polyurethanes - yes, it is that soft). It also happens to be the "thermo-reactive polymer" that Dixon uses , so far as I can tell (I work with ABS plastic on a regular basis - have for many years - so I feel very confident in saying this).

To take this lesson (based on fact rather than extrapolation) a step further, Delrin (as it is commonly known on this forum), or, acetyl, is also a "thermo-reactive polymer." Acetyl has a higher melting point than ABS, and a higher density, making it much more durable and versatile.

Frankly, while people's thoughts on ABS plastic may range from "indifferent" to "sturdy" in the world of whistling, in the world of plastics, it's thought of as crap - and it's used primarily to cut manufacturing costs in applications that don't require the choice of material to have a high degree of structural integrity. Furthermore, I believe that there are a few whistle makers out there using ABS plastic, who refer to it as "polymer" exactly for this reason.

[DrPhill]

An interesting clarification - the world of plastics is rather opaque to me. A question if I might:

Frankly, while people's thoughts on ABS plastic may range from (........) it's used primarily to cut manufacturing costs in applications that don't require the choice of material to have a high degree of structural integrity.

What does that mean when applied to a whistle? Surely a whistle does not encounter huge forces in its daily life, so ABS may be a sufficiently robust material? I am not stating that it is, just asking in what way does ABS's properties compromise the performance of the final whistle? For the record, I am not a huge fan of plastic (I prefer wood) - maybe I am looking for some facts to back up my prejudice

[AvienMael]

I personally don't care for it. The solvents used in working with ABS are sufficiently nasty enough to kill a person, although that's not likely to be an issue with your whistles. As stated, it's weaker. Especially if it has been molded (which tends to make it more brittle, depending on the process), and especially if it gets cold enough. At warmer temperatures, it's also softer and more prone to distortion. On most whistle applications I've run across, the material is molded. ABS can also be formed through a process of extrusion, which does make it stronger and gives it some better resistance to impact and distortion than it's molded counterparts, but this is a much more complicated and costly process, and is usually found in much thicker applications where resistance to chemical corresion and pressure are both required... and much thicker than one would use in whistle making.

Now, I'm not a chemist, but for my purposes, what I have learned is that when dealing with plastics, one of the main things that distinguishes one type from another, is the strength of their molecular bonds (which is determined by it's chemical composition), and the presence (or absence) of any "voids" within the crystaline structure. This determines the strength of the material (and it's suitability for an application). Lower melting point + easy to adhere(to itself) = lighter, weaker, less durable, but these properties tend to make it easier to work with. Higher melting point + low ability to adhere = heavier, higher density, stronger, more durable, and sometimes much more difficult to work with. In addition to the melting point, thermo-plastics also have what is called a "glass transition point" which is defined as the temperature at which it has the greatest amount of elasticity, and which directly relates to the affect temperature has on it in terms of softening and distortion. Glass transition points for plastics are generally MUCH lower (by as much as two thirds) than the actual melting point for the same material. Thus, higher melting points also mean higher glass transition points and (as is the case with ABS) vice-versa.

[DrPhill]

Thanks AvienMael.

Would I be correct then in understanding that ABS compared to higher quality plastic would be:
- more prone to fracture, with the propensity increasing faster with falling temperature
- more prone to heat deformation with a lower threshold for damage.

I can see how it relates to the physics and chemistry too. This forum is certainly an education.

Oh, and apologies to the OP for this digression.