Understanding my Thibouville flute

[andref]

OK,

so according to many suggestions I decided to get my Thibouville a run. I have aleady started and it is not as hard as I thought, but I have a couple of questions that you experts may be able to help me out

a) Origin. I've seen all sorts of denominations of Thibouville Flutes. Mine says specifically "Jerôme Thibouville Lamy" and in some segments just "JTL" Can any of you put a tentative date on it? From family information it should be around 1860-1870, but it can be earlier or later...
b) wood. I mentioned it before as "blackwood" in fact I shouldn't. It's actually just "black wood" I have no idea what it could be. it could be coccus or something else. How can I identify the wood? I can post pictures, but I do not know what to look for.
c) Out of tune F#. I doubt Monsieur Jerôme would make on purpose out of tune instruments. My guess is that it is out of tune because of the Temperament that flute was initially tuned to. Modern instruments are tuned in equal temperament, which was impossible to use before the 20th century. Could it have been tuned to a a mean tone system, or a well tempered system? Or are there other reasons?

Thanks for any help

Andre'

Andre'

[jemtheflute]

Pictures would help, but it is most likely to be cocus - the French tend to call it 'palisander'. By the early C20th grenadilla (blackwood) was also in use, so that is possible too. The flat F# is normal - not for reasons of temperament (Equal Temperament was already in use for keyboards and fretted instruments way earlier than you might think!) but due to constructional compromises - chiefly the desire to retain the cross-fingered F natural. If you vent both the F key and the Eb key for F# you'll find it comes nearly sharp enough. Read Rick Wilson's page on C19th French flutes and seek out an appropriate fingering chart.

[pflipp]

I've found that the xxx oxx' F# is actually quite in tune, although only available on the 2nd octave. When it comes to intonation systems, this is a good starting point for late night reading + some math excercises. I still haven't done all of that homework myself...

Also, what I find striking and cannot fully explain yet, is that the same issue can be found back in recorders. Baroque recorders have no true F / F# hole as well, but play both these notes by cross fingering. Thanks to some other properties (different airstream, range extending down to C) these cross fingerings are actually quite in tune for all octaves.

(German recorders have "fixed" this by making the odd (F / F#) hole a proper F hole, but this reportedly drastically limits the recorder's playable range because the "odd hole" is also used as a collaborator in higher note fingerings.)

Now the really odd part to me is that these recorders are marked as C instruments whose history would be largely unrelated to that of the flute, while they actually seem to feature quite the same 6-hole core system as D flutes from that era

[andref]

Here's 2 pics

It should be difficult to identify the wood, but at least you can see the model. The Bb key is below the body of the flute

http://img7.imageshack.us/i/thibouvilleunmounted.jpg/

http://img97.imageshack.us/i/thibouvillemounted.jpg/

The flute is in good playing condition, needing some new corking despite having no leaks. The embouchure is a bit tough, though.

[let's hope you can see the images! - first time doing this!]

[jemtheflute]

Photos are a bit dark- so I manipulated the disassembled one a bit - so far as I can see, and this isn't reliable/definitive of course, it looks more like cocus than grenadilla to me. Looks like a good-conditon, nice example of a bog-standard French 5-keyer. Should play very nicely. Thibouville were a respected firm.

Have you ascertained what pitch it is built for? The majority of this type of flute was built for diapason normal - A =432Hz. A minority were built for A=439/440 - lucky for current use if the latter.

[andref]

Hi jemtheflute

Photos are a bit dark- so I manipulated the disassembled one a bit - so far as I can see, and this isn't reliable/definitive of course, it looks more like cocus than grenadilla to me. Looks like a good-conditon, nice example of a bog-standard French 5-keyer. Should play very nicely. Thibouville were a respected firm.

Thank you so much for your trouble! And I guess it's better if it is indeed in cocus. this flute, once it warms a bit, has a lovely sound, despite a little lower than my polymer M&E

Have you ascertained what pitch it is built for? The majority of this type of flute was built for diapason normal - A =432Hz. A minority were built for A=439/440 - lucky for current use if the latter.

hmm... how can I know?
I just did some tests with my tuner. Set it to A432 and tried to get an A on the flute. To do so I had to get a lot of the tuning slide out. About 2.5 cm. I generally get the A440 with the tuning slide out perhaps a little over 1.3 cm (never checked it in fact, and do not have a ruler handy). Does this say anything?

Thanks for your help

And pflipp, thanks for the info! I found also that it is only the lower F# that is a bit out of tune. On the second octave it sounds perfectly in tune!

[jemtheflute]

Sounds like it is a modern pitch one, then. Ideal! The diapason normal ones I have won't come up to 440 with the slide closed.

[andref]

Hi there,
As I was browsing through the earlyflute.com site I found an answer to my question/conjecture I formulated a while ago, so I'm returning to this old thread:

c) Out of tune F#. I doubt Monsieur Jerôme would make on purpose out of tune instruments. My guess is that it is out of tune because of the Temperament that flute was initially tuned to. Modern instruments are tuned in equal temperament, which was impossible to use before the 20th century. Could it have been tuned to a a mean tone system, or a well tempered system? Or are there other reasons?

Here (http://www.earlyflute.com/earlyflutenew ... ning1.html) I found this:

In the following an example for the relation between tuning the traverso and temperament is presented. The f♯/1 is a tone that is obtained opening holes five, six and seven only. By closing six and seven this lowers to f/1. However it does not lower enough for equal temperament. The important hole for tuning both notes is hole six. Increasing for instance hole six will make both notes higher. There are possibilities in the bore to influence the tuning of both notes somewhat independently, but never such that they come to an equal temperament. So all traverso flutes have a have the difference between f/1and f♯/1 smaller than an equal temperament half tone. Is this bad? Yes and no. We are so used to equal temperament that most of us are inclined to find that right.However the pure major third is just 13.7 cents smaller than the equal temperament third. This means that the pure major third on d gives a lower f♯/1 than equal temperament does. This is exactly what we find on the traverso. So for music in d this is not so bad at all.

Of course, Mr Polack is referring to the Traverso Flute, But the tuning problems in the Baroque were the same in the 19th century. There was no way to accurately tune any instrument to equal temperament, so the F# in older flutes can be naturally flatter! And this this true even with keys, for it was not an issue with flute technology, but rather a "problem" of changing tuning systems. Equal temperament in fact produces thirds that are sharper than they should.

--A.

[Terry McGee]

It's a comforting theory, but unfortunately, it wasn't how it happened. The traverso had smaller holes than your JTL, but even it had to be humoured to get F# sharp enough for Just Intonation, let alone ET.

On the JTL and the many similar flutes, F# will be considerably flatter than even demanded by Just Intonation. And anyway, by the 19th century, JI had long given away to the various meantone and "well" temperaments and they were all giving away to ET. Remember Bach's "Well Tempered Clavier" was published in 1722. The temperaments and ET were routinely tuned by keyboard tuners by counting beats (as they still do today).

I think human hand limitations coupled with the French love of the soft pathetic tone of the small hole flute has more to do with it than JI. By this time, in England, Nicholson had introduced large holes, largely (but not entirely) fixing the flat F# syndrome. But these never caught on on the Continent.

Both the French and the Germans ended up solving the problem with extra keywork. Tulou added an F# sharpening key on his flûte perfectioneé. It was operated by R3, and I find it very hard to use.



You can see a description of it about two thirds the way down:

http://www.mcgee-flutes.com/collection.html

A development of the German reform flute automatically opened an additional venting for F# but closed it when the F natural key was closed. Because it involves some logic, it requires a ring key on the 6th hole so it knows when to open and when not to.

Terry

[andref]

Hi Terry

Thank you so much for your informed answer. And it's a privilege that you have bothered to answer me! You have given me me tons of stuff to think about. I have to agree with most of your remarks, although I still contend that the tuning system has to have an influence.

I'll just take this statement from you:

On the JTL and the many similar flutes, F# will be considerably flatter than even demanded by Just Intonation. And anyway, by the 19th century, JI had long given away to the various meantone and "well" temperaments and they were all giving away to ET. Remember Bach's "Well Tempered Clavier" was published in 1722. The temperaments and ET were routinely tuned by keyboard tuners by counting beats (as they still do today).

You certainly know this site: http://www.kylegann.com/histune.html Bach's clavier was not in ET. It was tuned to the Werckmeister tuning that is clearly different from ET. Also the WTC was written in fact to show the differences between the different keys and not to show how every piece can be played in all keys. For that result, pick any piece and make 11 transpositions and adjust accordingly for minor keys. ET was not established until the 20th century, or else why do we have about 150(!) tuning systems, many of them developed during the 19th Century. Counting beats is an approximation that one can listen for differences until 25 cents or there about, so most of the tuning differences had to be adjusted according to those innumerable systems.

One information I could not find was the identification of the tuning system used by Boehm flutes in the mid 19th century. I doubt they were in in ET, for they had to comply with the remaining of the orchestra. Perhaps you could could pour some light in!

--Andre'

[Terry McGee]

Yes, I'm aware that the Well Tempered Clavier was for a well-tempered tuning. My point was that, even back in 1722, Just Intonation was not meeting the needs of musicians at the time. The desire for modulation had overridden the desire for harmony.

The well temperaments were much closer to ET than they were to JI. Some WT we know and still use today for harpsichord family are Vallotti, Kirnberger and Werckmeister. Valotti for example approximated ET within -4 to +8 cents.

But by the 19th century, even these had given away to equal temperament, although it's fair to say the beating process only allows an approximation. A system in use by piano factory tuners in England in 1840 theoretically got them within 1 cent of ET, which should do for practical purposes!

For all ET's sins (which are numerous!), it actually makes sense in an orchestral situation. Even if the orchestra wanders away from it in the attempt to maximise harmony, ET would put the player in a better position than any other system. Better that your G# lies halfway between G# and Ab, than having to slide over from G# to Ab.

Boehm expressly mentions equal temperament, and backs that up with his "schema", a geometric chart which enables the maker to adjust the hole positions for different pitches.

Good questions, Andre!

Terry

[andref]

Hi again Terry,

Thank you so much for your information! You clarified many doubts I had in your posts! Besides being one of the finest flute makers, you are indeed an outstanding encyclopedia of flute related matters.

All the best,

Andre'

[Kevin L. Rietmann]

I have a Martin Frere flute like that, only 8 key; also an anon French 5 key. Dorus or Tolou or whoever writes about that flat F in his Tutor or Methode or whatever, I have a reprint, with a green cover. Sorry to be vague, it's not to hand at the moment. His advice is to just not dwell on the note; duh...

Does your flute have metal sockets in the "female" sections? Mine does, and they were a bit of a chore to have repaired. These French flutes have a lovely sweet sound to them, though, and play themselves. Both of mine play in A=440 no problem, too, which isn't true of many of the German or quasi-German American flutes I've bought. The Frere is what I play in Irish sessions, and always found it to be loud enough for the job. It's not a cannon in the bottom hand like the English jobs but never really missed that.

I have a 15 key Italian or Viennese flute with the Tulou F# key Terry mentions. Never got it to play satisfactorily so dunno about its merits.