It's a small point, but. . .

[jemtheflute]

OK, here's a copy & paste of what I've got so far:

Jem Hammond:
Query to all fluters. I'd appreciate any responses to the following: What do you habitually call the key for R4 on your flute that gives the note(s) D#/Eb? Clarification follows.....

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James Peeples
I call it the E-flat key or the E-flat touch, depending on whether I'm talking about the whole key (including pad and cup), or just the part that my finger actuates.

However, I should clarify that when I first learned flute as a child, this ...was what I was told the corresponding key on the Boehm-system instrument was called.

Also, it sort of depends on context. If I'm playing something in E-major, for instance, and you asked me about the key then, I would probably call it the D# key, because my brain would be set in that context.
Monday at 20:30

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Jem Hammond
To explain a bit more - please just say what you most naturally think of it as/hear used by your peers/learnt as a beginner to call it from tutors/tutor books - your received, oral tradition default term.

Your genre of music and system of flute are not relevant, nor is what you may, on reflection/intellectualisation, think it "ought" "correctly" to be named.... This is intended as a straw poll to see what is the most common usage. It would be helpful to know where in the world you are, though, as I suspect there may be national differences.

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Jem Hammond
And (from a point James made), please think just in terms of discussing the instrument/its mechanism without reference to any piece of music/tonality.
Monday at 20:32

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Lucy Whitfield
E flat key. Always.
Monday at 20:36

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James Peeples
Sorry, didn't mean to over-complicate the thing. Put me down for "E-flat key," and my location as central Arkansas, U.S.A.
Monday at 20:41

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Sophie DuckduckGoose
To be honest, and without being difficult, if I'm playing Eb I think of it as the Eb key and if I'm playing D# I think of it as D#. C# key is always C#, F# is always F#, G# is always G# and Bb is always Bb.
It's because Eb and D# are both pr...etty much equally common notes, but I'm betting you knew that
UK. Midlands, not that I grew up here. (and "fluter" isn't a word I recognise, to open a whole new can of worms...)See more
Monday at 20:56

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Don Thomsen
you mean the Eb key that you use to get a D#?
Monday at 20:57

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Sophie DuckduckGoose ‎
(Jem, it's probably not helped by the fact that I almost never discuss the structure of flutes with anyone)
Monday at 21:00

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Chris Bursnall
I agree with Sophie - except I don't have a key! )
Monday at 21:06

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Chris Coreline
George
Monday at 21:26

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Jon Cornia Eb
Monday at 21:31

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Mark Priestley
lol, hope you're not canvassing evidence to reignite that thread!
Monday at 21:32

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Mark Priestley
PS. it's obviously the Eb key, don't rise to the bait
Monday at 21:33

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Gregory Dyke
Eb
Monday at 21:35

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Lars Kirmser
If your playing a chromatic scale going upwards, it's a D# key; If you are playing a chromatic scale downwards, it an Eb key; if your playing a really contemporary piece of music, you may be playing an F double flat key.
Monday at 21:38

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Jem Hammond ‎
@ Lars - that's true, but one of my conditional exclusions! Please read my first couple of explanatory posts at the top of the thread!
Monday at 21:44

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Steafan Hannigan
Ghost d !
Monday at 21:45

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Ben Hall
Bloody pipers ...
Monday at 22:06

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Claudine Duschinger
useless
Monday at 22:13

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Elaine Thompson
Eb key, California, US. I would have to think for a moment if you called it D#, although I would figure it out easily enough.
Monday at 22:14

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Claudine Duschinger
but if I used it, I would call it the D sharp key, as it is mostly used in E minor
Monday at 22:16

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Bryan Duggan
Eb Key
Monday at 23:14

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Elizabeth Walker
L.F. = little finger key... RH/LF in fact...?!?
Monday at 23:21

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Jem Hammond
@ Elizabeth - seriously, when the RHLF has three or four to operate (on a C or C+ footed flute)? Could be confusing!
Monday at 23:30

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Larry Mallette
I was always told this key on the baroque flute is known as the Eb key, and see no reason it should be called D# on the more modern style flutes, like a Pratten or Rudall-Rose. Have no idea where this convention originated. Maybe we should call it "Sam" or "Ginger."
Monday at 23:48

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Jeff Janssen
Eb key, Calif., US

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Lars Kirmser
My guess is that if you play principally in a Band (no strings), you probably call it an Eb key; if you play more often in a Symphony Orchestra, you will probably refer to it as a D# key.

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Eric Brinkman
i've always heard it called the Eb key; that's what it's called in Hammy's flute players handbook (p56), but i got out my Valley Timber tutor book and he calls it the D# key (p14). argh.

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Ronnie Bracke
The key where I always get stuck with me pinky..o-)

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Berti Peeters
Eb

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Dagmar Steele
Eb, Germany.

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Steffen Gabriel
Eb, Germany as well. When explaning keys I sometimes say that D# can be played with the same key, but most customers or students know that anyway.

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Andy Mac
Eb

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Kevin Krell
First off, I'd call the finger B4 (bottom hand, 4th finger), and the key on an Irish flute is Eb. On a Boehm, it's D#.14 hours ago
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Bill Reese
E flat key for me

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Gonniff von Gonniff
I always speak in terms of flats, never sharps.

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Gonniff von Gonniff
Well, of course unless we're talking about R1 (F#) or open C#, but otherwise, it's flats for me.

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Jem Hammond
‎@ Lars - but you still haven't answered the Q in the terms I requested...! What do YOU personally tend most often to call it/what did YOU learn to call it from your teacher(s), regardless of context?

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Jim Miller
I call it the Eb key. Ohio, US. But I think of it as the D# key on the 4-key flute I play.

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David Levine
E flat.

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Patrick Dunn
Irish flute players and makers call it Eb I don't get the fuss?

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Clinton Coates
Eb key. Recognizing of course that Eb = D# in equal temperament, except when I am playing traverso, when I try to quantzify my Eb and D# with middling-to-poor results.

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Jem Hammond
‎@ Patrick - no fuss, at least, not here I just wanted out of curiosity to try to get a snapshot of the balance of use between the two possibilities.

Of course the enharmonic equivalence goes without saying - and to acknowledge it in speech is too awkward - no-one calls it the "D#/Eb key". What is the more common/popular shorthand is all I'm seeking to discover - not why. I strongly suspect the "why" is simply a matter of handed-on, traditional or conditioned usage - so which is dominant? Thus far, Eb. But I could do with some more of my classical Bohm fluting FB "friends" chipping in - it's predominantly traddie, cross-over and amateur players so far.

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Lars Kirmser
I refer to it as Eb. I do a considerable amount of publishing for the repair technician, and have always referred to it as Eb with respect to the professional repair technician.

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Willy Simmons
I do know the egg came before the chicken and I think E flat came before D sharp but on a trad flute you have a D sharp! and an E sharp (F) and a A sharp!!

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Jem Hammond
‎@ Willy - thinking generically here, not system or genre-specific! What would you tend to call it when making Bohm flutes and what do you mostly hear your classical customers refer to it as?

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Willy Simmons
E Flat!!! the Yanks call it D sharp.

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Jem Hammond
Thanks Willy. Not so sure how much consensus there is on that in Yankdom, though - certainly on the evidence here so far!

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Denny Ray
Eb....1st 3, eh F#, C#, G#, Bb, Eb, and Ab
okay...maybe 1st 2

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D W
Eb key - D from CA, US. Also have heard teachers call it the "tear drop key", to help young beginners remember it by its shape.

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Philippe Barnes
on my silver flute Eb - it's what we learnt first in england

on my simple system wooden flute D sharp - as willy says it's changing the D into an D sharp

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Philippe Barnes
changed my mind, probably Eb on both

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Amble Skuse
Hi jem, well i call her Eb, probably because when learning scales (major) starting from F and G and working upwards in terms of sharps and flats, you need to learn your Eb for 2 flats but don't learn D sharp until 4 sharps. Having said that you need D# for Emin harmonic which is only 1# so it's probably learnt about the same time as Bb major, which blows my theory out the window... ahem. well anyway .... Eb key, boehm player uk. Eb seems easier to say than D#. is it just me?

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Sarah Osborn
Eb on both kinds of flutes (Wales)

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Denny Ray
whoa! honorable mention!!

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Jem Hammond (movable footer post)
I can see I'm going to have to keep doing this because of the way FB displays threads.....

Please open the existing Comments and read the first few before posting!

Thanks to all who've contributed so far, including the jokers and the terminally confused and/or obtuse! Keep 'em coming! I'd especially like to hear from more orchestral players.

I'll make another transfer as and when it seems appropriate.
Speaks for itself pretty much!

[post contains 1 minor edit by request - Mod]

[highwood]

not only is this just a personal observation - its about an oboe!

for what its worth: the right hand little finger gets to press three keys from the top down they are C, C# and Eb (and not Dbb, Db or D# - they all modify the fingered D after all!) The left pinkie gets B, Bb, Eb, F, and G#

This is about playing in general - particularly when reading dots -
now as to what one thinks about when reading music that depends on the context of the music, and as to whether one actually thinks D# when seeing a D# and plays the Eb key or whether in this context one thinks of it as a D# key probably is an individual thing that depends on the player and is getting just too deep/philosophical right now! Zen and the art of enharmonics.

when playing from memory - personally I hear the tune, and move my fingers to make the notes that I hear, I do not think of the names of the keys - but my fingers can also have their own 'muscle memory' - if know a tune well I can start on a 'different' note and play it in a different key (easiest for me on the english horn followed by the oboe, followed by the whistle - whistle is hard because I'm just not use to playing in any key, my fingers do not know 'patterns' in any key

[Shelp]

Fascinating!! but for me it's D#..... dunno why, i'd never heard it as Eb until started playing Irish Flute. I don't use it though, as i have enough work to do learning tunes with no need for such a key... so many tunes to learn

[Cubitt]

Jem,
I should say here that this thread started acknowledging that trad players (at least on this site) tend to refer to the key as Eb; that was never in dispute. My question was about why. So far, the only book on flute I have found using Eb is Grey Larsen's. For the longest time, the Flute Tutor was about all there was for ITM, and it uses D#. All of my Boehm books, including the man himself, use D#.

Your survey answers seem to be either vague as to how the respondents came to use Eb or else they try to rationalize it. Still, we all learn these terms from somewhere, so if you speculate that part of this might be regional, perhaps the question should be about what their fingering charts say, assuming they have one.

[I.D.10-t]

My opinion (which isn't worth the pixels on your screen)

It's neither. This is the problem that you end up with when you use names designed for just intonation to describe an equal temperament system. It's short hand for the 311.13 Hz key. I wonder how Pianoforte players refer to it?

[benhall.1]

I'm just thinkin' ... am I the only one wondering why this subject has run to 8 pages? Big end or little end, anyone? Let's start a war!

And in the meantime, it seems a little ... hmmm ... contrary? ... is that the right word? Anyway, whatever the word is, it seems awkward to know how to respond when the OP asks why people call it an Eb key, and then you (Cubitt) appear to complain when people rationalise their use of the term. Isn't that what we were supposed to do? Or have I missed something somewhere?

[Cubitt]

I'm just thinkin' ... am I the only one wondering why this subject has run to 8 pages? Big end or little end, anyone? Let's start a war!

And in the meantime, it seems a little ... hmmm ... contrary? ... is that the right word? Anyway, whatever the word is, it seems awkward to know how to respond when the OP asks why people call it an Eb key, and then you (Cubitt) appear to complain when people rationalise their use of the term. Isn't that what we were supposed to do? Or have I missed something somewhere?

Well, since you asked, I'll make the thread just a little longer. First, please note that I have tried more than once to bring things to a conclusion, so don't blame me because people keep posting.

To answer your second question, I am not looking for people to rationalize or justify their choice of Eb. If that's what you call it, fine; you don't have to be defensive about it or create a case for calling it Eb. I seriously doubt that anyone went through a process of intellectual agonizing to come to the conclusion that they thought the key should be called Eb. I simply wondered why anyone would, given that the literature does not support it. As I said in my last post, we all learn our terms from somewhere, and I don't see Eb in too many sources, so I wondered why players on this site continually used Eb. I wasn't looking for an argument, just an answer. Am I being clear enough? I thought I'd already covered this, so perhaps you have missed something.

[benhall.1]

Nope. I'm still confused. I don't seem to be able to answer the question "why" without rationalising ... It must be me ...

[MarkP]

mmm...you asked why and I think you have your answers. Hopefully it's OK that they don't tend to agree with you or your documented sources. I wouldn't see it as a problem, you're not wrong, just in a minority

[Cubitt]

Nope. I'm still confused. I don't seem to be able to answer the question "why" without rationalising ... It must be me ...

Okay, let me give you an example:

When I do something for someone and they say "thank you," I respond with, "You're welcome." These days, a lot of folks say, "No problem" instead of "You're welcome." If you were to ask me why I use "You're welcome," I could justify it as being a more courteous reply or more appropriate or whatever. That would be a rationalization. The simple truth is that I was brought up saying "You're welcome," and that is pretty much the end of that. I'm guessing those who use Eb either just came to it on their own or heard someone else say it. The part that seems strange to me is that it is so common amongst the members here.

To put it another way, most of us Yanks refer to our country as either America or the U.S. If I saw everyone on this site calling it the U. S. of A., I might ask how that came about. I understand that it means the United States of America, so I don't need that rationalization, but given that it is not the commonly recognized name, why would someone gravitate to it?

Better?

[david_h]

Bb and Eb (and Cnat and Fnat) are either one or two semitones from a 'white key' note of a different letter on either side. A# and D# have three semitones to a different lettered white key note in one direction. That may be harder on some brains (possibly including mine) than switching between two names for the same thing (in ET and/or if you only have one key) depending on context. Even with zero formal musical training I find that flipping between the two names depending on context is effortless.
In answer to the question (if that is still a point of discussion...) - I probably learn it (Eb that is) on the internet.

[MarkP]

sure you had your answer right at the beginning of the thread then, like you say, "The simple truth is that I was brought up saying...Eb" and Eb is "the commonly recognized name", end of.

Obviously most people here didn't learn from the documentary sources you introduced (or from any documentary sources). They learned from other players and teachers. Given that a large portion of teachers in the oral/aural tadition don't read any stave at all or know what an interval is, it's not surprising that the common name would come from common history, keys and modes. And you've pages and pages of educated rationalisation about why that might result in the common name. What's not to like?

You just need to erase all memory of music theory and formal training - except maybe the military and fife band stuff, which might be relevant (conjecture).

[benhall.1]

Yes, that definitely works better for me, at any rate. I was beginning to feel harried ...

In which case, my simple answer is that it has and will be the Eb key for me, partly because that's what I've heard a lot of people say and therefore it sounds somehow 'foreign' to hear it described as D#, and partly because it's a special key which does a lot more than just play the note it's named after and, for reasons I don't fully understand, the name for that special key works better for me if it's Eb rather than D#. I think it's because it provides support for notes at E and above by venting a hole that's close to D and, like most people who've grown up with experience of classical music and the nineteenth century (as opposed to eighteenth and earlier) notion of "expressive intonation", I think of Eb as being closer to D than D# is. (This seems to be especially the case for string players, I think, who have often, as I was, been brought up to believe that "leading notes should lead" and that D# is a leading note up to E, and Eb can be a leading note down to D.)

I'm hoping that this answer gives at least my view as to the "why" without the "rationalising", but with some necessary further musing and clarification.

Having said all of the above, I personally wouldn't get overly excited if everyone in the world (apart from me of course) were to start calling it the D# key. Not that they have ...

[Something in the "leading notes" argument above has led me to wonder if it might simply be because the Eb key is on the foot and therefore wouldn't be a note leading to E. Hmmm ...]

[cross-post, but I'm going for it anyway. ]

[jemtheflute]

Obtuse or what!?!?

Cubitt, indeed you did say that about traddies/C&F-ers in your OP and I've never lost sight of that. It was one of the reasons I set up my survey on FB where I have a fair-sized pool of classical flute "friends".

In my straw poll, I deliberately didn't ask why people used the term they did and tried to steer them away from explaining anything - I'd already seen here that folk would digress off into rationalisations that were more to do with music theory than with the actual roots of their personal usage - and even so quite a few of my respondents went that way..... My objective was to try to find out from a non-C&F, broader spectrum of fluters what their default term was. I don't think what I've had is vague at all: sure, some individual answers are, but a good many more are (maybe after some prompting) pretty straight-up. (I'll analyse later.)

One interesting outcome is that my speculation about regional/national variance seems not to be the case. Even though Willy Simmons (the respected Bohm flute maker I mentioned) initially said he thought Americans were more likely to use D#, the evidence of American responders doesn't bear that out. However, my other speculation, that an individual's usage is most likely simply a result of early exposure oral transmission is looking increasingly to be the case, and notwithstanding the acknowledged preponderance of D# in technical literature thus far surveyed (and please note Lars Kirmser's contribution and explanation of his experience), that oral tradition in all genres of music on all types of flute and in all the countries we have represented is coming down heavily on a preference for Eb.

Thus far you have not acknowledged the examples of technical publication using "Eb" we have profferred, save for Larsen. I still think that we need to get more specific reminiscences of early tuition and reports on some more primer books (1 all so far) if we are to answer your query in the terms you have now clarified. After all, few beginners read Bohm or Rockstro! I commented previously on the nature of fingering charts - most (and I've looked at a good many for all types of flute in my time!) avoid giving the keys note-names, rather numbering them and then using those numbers (or other symbols) in the charts and note-naming only the fingerings, or giving symbolic/diagrammatic tabulation for each fingering that avoids "naming" keys. However, the on-line ones Mark quoted above (also not acknowledged by you), including one that is emphatically NOT a traddie source do provide examples.

Highwood's post is interesting - it IMO bears out, or at least points toward what I was getting at with my earlier comment/query about how folk might default name a piano's keys.

A word on my own case: I started as a teenager on flute on Bohm metal flute using Tune-a-Day and then had a few classical lessons using the Hart book I've cited. Between my (music student) teacher, that book and my peers at school, I learnt to call it the Eb key. (Whether my abortive couple of years' piano lessons about 6 years earlier had any influence, I couldn't say, though at least it left me with a rudimentary ability to read staff notation.) I was most definitely not in a "folk" context. Within that first year or so of fluting I was given my family heirloom 6-key SS flute, which led to a visit to a flute collector which led in turn to me reading Rockstro - who as I've already said, used D#. Somewhat later but still long ago I read a good many other books including Bate (I don't have a copy and that was many years ago....don't recall his usage) Bohm and Vallely.

I've thus nearly always been aware of the dichotomy, especially in many influential technical sources, but it hasn't changed my (received) usage, nor has the generality of my experience of others' usage, Bohm or Simple system orientated, led me to feel I was out of step with the common usage. I might well have switched if it had! Any way the wind blows! I like to be seen to be "right" as much as anyone...... I might even have switched on the authority of the technical sources just to be "correct", pedant that I am, but for some reason I haven't. (Of course, I equally like to be visibly odd-man-out sometimes! )

Prior to this thread, I had not thought seriously about this issue (after all, it really is NOT important!) - and my various speculations up-thread have been pretty much fresh. I was quite prepared to find that a majority of Americans, or classically trained or Bohm fluters or any combination thereof would default to D#, but that does not seem to be so.

Now, to my FB survey responses.... I had considered going through that post and annotating the non-C&F familiars with their fluting background as best I'm aware of it, but looking at it, quite a few make that apparent by their choice of words, and I don't necessarily know in full for all of them, so I won't do that, but I will (in a subsequent post ) give a summary/analysis to reflect what we have, as well as adding today's responses.

Cross-posted - some good sense in the last few posts, including what I speculated earlier might be and now believe is The Answer.

[Nanohedron]

Hey, Jem, perhaps you'll be kind enough to PM me the results. In the meantime, the only constuctive thing left I could think of to do on this topic was to follow up on your point that in trad circles, Eb is the norm. I checked my Grey Larsen book and lo and behold he uses Eb! But then I checked Timber - The Flute Tutor and on page 14, the key is identified as D#.

So the concensus still seems to be favoring D#, fwiw.

Thanks.

Waidaminnit. First a mention of common usage in trad circles, which I take to mean the trenches and is one thing, and then mention of resource material, which to me is only peripheral and quite another thing, and then use of the word "consensus" as if both fluter and book are of the same voting body but editions, which stand less populous by far, hold the trump cards. I'm not agreeing with the line of thinking that suggests at all. An author's usage in this matter is his or her preference or conviction, and so long as there is no uniform canon, for we see there is not, thus that material is only descriptive. As we have seen among the flesh-and-blood (did you check out Jem's FB page? Most illustrative), the descriptive is by no means prescriptive.

If as regards a living tradition we're going to use the word "consensus", we need to keep books and players separate.