Whistle fingering vs. Recorder

[swduncan]

Is a whistle's fingering more like the German recorder or baroque?

Thanks!

[Corgicrazed]

As a player of both Recorder and tin whistle, I can tell you somthing about that. I have used both German and Baroque fingering and I think that the Baroque is closer. For example: You can get a C on a recorder and tinwhistle with the same fingering, Granted it's usually a bit weak on whistle, but It's definately a C. The fingering for the tin whistle's C is optional and the usuall fingering is that the B hole is half covered to get C. However if you are transitioning from recorder to tinwhistle the optional fingering is indeed useful to know. One other thing, if you are changing to whistle don't put down the recorder, you can use it for ITM as well, and besides it sounds great! Some of those songs seem meant more for recorder and in my humble opinion sound better on it. The only drastic difference between the two fingerings are high D,F#, and of course C#, and probaly somthing else that I can't think of at the moment. Anyhow, Good luck and keep playing!

[heyjude]

I'll go with the German fingering. The soprano recorder is a C diatonic instrument and the C whistle is a C diatonic instrument. I've also got the Baroque soprano recorder and I'm more comfortable switching between the German tuning and the C whistle.

But then, I don't play either one of them very well.

Jude

[Kypfer]

The baroque descant recorder is very like a "D" whistle with a low C. That is to say the primary scale of the instrument starts with the third finger of the right hand, as does a whistle, then proceeds in a very similar fashion until the octave change.

The primary scale on a "german" (simplified system) recorder starts with the little finger on the right hand, so the primary scale plays "one finger lower", for want of a better term. When playing in D, compensation has to be made for the F# and the C# on the "simplified" instrument, whereas one can "get away with" whistle fingering for F# on a baroque recorder, if you're not too critical ... play it quickly, no-one will ever notice

From my limited experience, I'd suggest it is easier to adapt between a baroque recorder and a whistle rather than a "german" recorder.

[JackCampin]

The C descant recorder is most similar in its fingering to a D whistle. A recorder with German fingering makes the F a semitone flat of what you'll be expecting if you're used to the whistle. You can adjust to it, but you will make a few fluffs on the way.

I have a couple of German-fingered recorders but I bought them because they're in pitches I couldn't easily get otherwise (one is a voiceflute in D and the other a sopralto in A, both probably predate the Third Reich). If you're buying a new recorder there's no reason to get involved in German fingering at all, since there is a wider and better choice of baroque/English and Renaissance fingered instruments.

[killthemessenger]

As others have said, the German system is closer to the whistle fingering system. But it has the disadvantage of effectively reducing the recorder to a diatonic instrument with difficult fingerings for other keys than C (in the case of the soprano). The great advantage of the recorder over the whistle is precisely that you can play in all common keys with (relatively...) little effort, say up to three sharps and three flats on a C recorder. After that, things get awkward, to say the least. It depends on how much time you want to spend playing scales.

To chose the German fingering system over the English (Baroque) system is to paint yourself into a corner. There's plenty of lovely music you can play on the recorder where you'll appreciate the instrument's chromatic capabilities. Go for the English system if you really want to explore the instrument's potential.

BTW - I believe the inventor of the German system later disowned it.

[James_Alto]

As others have said, the German system is closer to the whistle fingering system. But it has the disadvantage of effectively reducing the recorder to a diatonic instrument with difficult fingerings for other keys than C (in the case of the soprano). The great advantage of the recorder over the whistle is precisely that you can play in all common keys with (relatively...) little effort, say up to three sharps and three flats on a C recorder. After that, things get awkward, to say the least. It depends on how much time you want to spend playing scales.

To chose the German fingering system over the English (Baroque) system is to paint yourself into a corner. There's plenty of lovely music you can play on the recorder where you'll appreciate the instrument's chromatic capabilities. Go for the English system if you really want to explore the instrument's potential.

BTW - I believe the inventor of the German system later disowned it.

Thanks - that was a really good post. I have a recorder with German fingering, as well as Baroque fingering. I think I prefer the Baroque recorder for chromatic pieces. Many world flute systems share similarities with the German fingering system i.e. no chromatic scales are possible in reality, however there is no hole size difference between holes 4 and 5 respectively and the simpler fingering of the notes F and Bb are possible.

If you can recommend any repertoire for the (bass) recorder using the chromatic scale, I'd love to know. I find it frustrating that there is mostly a narrow range of music for the bass recorder in western literature. I've turned to learning other world music to play on the bass recorder, since many ethnic flute systems only have an octave span of two octaves and a minor third or less.

As for whistles - yes, I always wondered how to play the extra # or flat thrown in flute music, when playing in a fixed key flute, without sudden volume loss or other undesirable effects from half fingering etc.

[killthemessenger]

Well, this is a bit off topic, but: the bass recorder is really a consort instrument, I doubt there's much solo music composed for it. But you have the entire repertoire of solo music for C and F recorders, which covers four or five centuries (with a couple missing in the middle...).

It's very useful to become familiar with the C fingerings (soprano, tenor) because you can use either C or F fingering on any recorder to transpose music into the instrument's range. If a piece is in D, for instance, you can play it on an alto using C fingerings which give you the range you need to play it (it will sound in G).

One good place to start for F instruments would be the Baroque Solo Book issued by Dolce. Most of the canonical Baroque repertoire for solo recorder is there, from an intermediate to pretty advanced level. For C instruments there's Van Eyck, which is a mix of the pedestrian and the magical. For the twentieth century you have the John Turner collections, but much of it is very demanding - way beyond me, certainly. You might want to have a chat with John Everingham at Saunders Recorders (he has a website) for advice.

And, as I mentioned in another post some time back, you can play a surprising amount of Baroque music on whistle, even including some Telemann solo flute fantasias, without too much half holing or cross fingering.

[James_Alto]

Well, this is a bit off topic, but: the bass recorder is really a consort instrument, I doubt there's much solo music composed for it. But you have the entire repertoire of solo music for C and F recorders, which covers four or five centuries (with a couple missing in the middle...).

That's correct - this is how I came to play the bass recorder in primary school. Somehow abandoned it, thinking that the flute was the 'solo' instrument. Now, even an alto flute, is considered a harmony flute, although in recent decades, an emerging solo repertoire for alto flute has been circulated around the world. Some rather avant garde material, by Sariaaho, Kokkonen and contemporary composers come to mind.

I still use C fingerings - in fact, I'm probably more intuitively inclined to read music with C fingerings, than F fingerings. The problem with transposing music, is that it does not exact the glorious bass recorder range. There's something beautiful about music written for a specific instrument, exploring its range and limits, by a composer who knows the instrument intimately, rather than just transposing music, as if the bass recorder was flexible enough to read other music intended for other instruments.

I have the Baroque Series (I-V) Royal Music books. These are great. I would like to learn some modern repertoire - like jazz and Latin on the bass recorder. Recently I borrowed Andrew Wilson's book (Spartan Press). Music like 'Put your hoe down' (oerrr!) can be played with C fingerings, or F fingerings. The John Turner collections I'll look into. I like challenging music, that is off-kilter in terms of repertoire. Over the past year I've been learning oriental repertoire - this does not use musical notation requiring a treble or bass clef, but I've worked out how to transpose it for the bass recorder or alto flute. I'm sure the torture I produce, would be deemed a violation of the original intended spirit of the music, but I really enjoy exploring different repertoire in this way. The Telemann solos are great as well. I don't have them them all but I will get them. You've got some fantastic taste to share here - many thanks.

[killthemessenger]

The John Turner books - Pieces for Solo Recorder, five or six volumes - are pretty avantguard. Not quite Berio, but still... personally I like it a lot, although much of it is out of my range.

If you have an accompanist, there are several beautiful English sonatas and suites from the pre-War period - "musical Englishry". Milford, Leigh. Britten's English folksongs (written for Peter Pears) would work well on alto or tenor.

Anyway, enough recorderisms.

[Feadoggie]

I find it frustrating that there is mostly a narrow range of music for the bass recorder in western literature.

Use the force!

[James_Alto]

I find it frustrating that there is mostly a narrow range of music for the bass recorder in western literature.

Use the force!

The force is with me. Look - a 2 CD book:




I was never geek enough to read Recorder Magazine, but I might start now!

What gets me about music books, is that the solo flute or solo recorder part, is only actually about 5-8 pages, and the piano parts take up the bulk of the book, but you always have to buy them two parts together, even if you just want the solo part!

Back on topic - is it just me, or do others find the F# on a German fingering rather weird?