A modest proposal...

[Mr.Gumby]

Playing with good musicians is a way of developing some skills, the skill of playing together well for example, being flexible and adaptable. On the other hand I feel sessions are not conducive at all for learning the finer points of this music and are in fact quite limiting when it comes to developing a number of other important skills.

To a lot of people sessions are the most visible manifestation of traditional music and it is quite easy to make the mistake of considering them the things itself, the be all end all of it. Which they aren't.

[benhall.1]

Sessions are a nice way of socialising and having a few tunes with friends there are skills to be learned there but to find good music and learn the finer points, you want to sit in a musician's kitchen with a cup of tea.

Handy for those of us who live in County Clare! But certainly, playing with other musicians is the best way to develop.

Nice of you to credit that particular bon mot to me. Can't claim the credit though, even though I agree with it strongly. And there are musicians elsewhere in the world than in County Clare. I know some extremely good players of Irish music - flute, pipes etc - in Northern Italy, as it happens.

[killthemessenger]

Apologies - it was of course Gumby who said it. That automatic quote thing is so convenient, but I forgot to check the attribution.

[Mr.Gumby]

Handy for those of us who live in County Clare!

Another essential point at the core of what 'tradition' is, the fact it's a music of people and places.

[DrPhill]

I thought that the trouble you went to to help me deserves more thought and feedback than I managed while eating breakfast. So here is a second response:

........................
Now before anyone gets their under garments into a twist, I am not saying that any of the examples posted by hans are bad in the playing ability shown, I am critiquing the style in which they are played, so here goes. I listened to each version with the window minimised and used my hearing only to assess each tune.

Good call. Should'a thought of that myself.

The Celtic Woman clip is ................... is not being played with any sort of energy, nor is there any variation in the phrasing that would make it ITM. It is particularly annoying to listen to all those slides onto ‘b’ at the start of each phrase in the A part. .........it is played too slowly for a start and there is no life in it.

So ITM has energy and variation. Repetitive use of the same 'ornament' is non-ITM. I can understand those. Is the speed thing an absolute? Could there be a true ITM version at that speed, or even slower?

The Harp and low whistle version was okay; it had the speed, although there was little variation in the ornamentation used on the low whistle and it may have had a bit more dynamism if the two players had been in the same room.
Yes, that would probably qualify as ITM, not great, but it falls within the spectrum.

The over arrangement of Orison (no idea who they are) makes this one just reek of being ‘not ITM’, and the time signature changes just make it a muddled mess. You would never ever hear it played this way in a session, unless Orison was at that session of course.
DrPhill, you would have had little trouble picking this as not ITM?

I would have guessed that it was not. But that may have been because I did not enjoy it. I am afraid I did not register the tempo change - may be I stopped it too soon. Or just in time. One thing that I assume is part of ITM is a strong rhythm, and if my foot taps on its own accord that is a positive. Did not happen on this one.

Silver roots; quite clearly being played by classically trained musicians. The playing is very measured and strict, with little ornamentation, the flute sounded better than the fiddle for me. Not ITM, but closer to being ITM than Orison ever will be.

My foot did not tap on this one. I could hear the playing as good, but thought it sterile, and unlikely to get anyone on the dance floor who was still sober enough to dance.

Well what can you say about Michael Copeland, block out Mr.Smith from your hearing and you will hear some very nice playing. I like the attack on the first b note in his phrasing, and there are lots of little subtle ornaments thrown in.
It was just a ‘jam’ (hate that word) but Michael’s playing is definitely in the ITM category.

Subtle ornaments are a plus, then.

So how do we define ITM? It’s as difficult to define as who has the truest Irish accent.
There is so much variation and subtlety involved in ITM that it defies definition.
To the untrained ear Irish music probably does all sound the same and it would be difficult to discern what tunes are being played in a real ITM style and which aren’t.
There is no simple set of references to guide you, it is only with listening over and over to all sorts of playing styles, tune versions and settings of tunes that will eventually lead to an understanding of what constitutes something as being ‘ITM’. And asking the old guys, as was stated earlier.

I guess that that is what I am actually doing in this thread.

I rambled enough, time for lunch.

Your ramblings were most helpful .

So ITM has characteristics of energy, subtle and varied ornamentation (amongst others).

Maybe a challenge. Who can find a good ITM piece on the web featuring a Piano? An electronic keyboard? A clarinet? A saxaphone? A trumpet? Do such exist?

@Hans:
I will venture my opinions to be shot down...
1: Tommy Potts. Very accomplished, but I felt that there was something rushed and uneven about it.
2: Bothy Band: Very competent, I found it difficult to listen to when all the instruments were going at the same time. I found it difficult to listen to whistle and pipes together. Perhaps a bit complex for my tastes.
3: Ryan Dunns: Awesome, as always. I have yet to find something of his I do not like.
4: Abraxas123: Excellent. I actually found my foot tapping to this one. I have saved it as an example for when I learn 'The Butterfly'.
5. Jody Hale + Rich: This got my foot tapping too. Is it ITM or has it strayed across the pond a bit? No matter, I liked it.

[RonKiley]

A quick search on youtube brought up Micho Russell, Sean Potts, Mary Bergen, Joanie Madden, Etc. These are traditional players see what is common to them. Notice they are from different areas. The Micho Russell and Sean Potts tunes were interesting to me because of the whistles they were playing. Micho was playing a nickel tube with a black head. Sean was playing a Gen tube with a red and blue head. I have no idea what the first one was but the second looked like a Gen red and a Gen blue head cut in half and joined.

Ron

[Mr.Gumby]

Micho brought an Oak back from the US, he played that for a while. Peter Hunter customises Seán Potts' whistles.

[david_h]

1: Tommy Potts. Very accomplished, but I felt that there was something rushed and uneven about it.

I know what you mean, but real butterflys are 'uneven' and unpredictable, not flouncy like those gals in the long frocks.

[RonKiley]

Thanks Mr. G

[Mockingbird]

So...if I'm picking up my tunes from Tradschool and Tradlessons...am I learning ITM?

I do like to listen to Micho Russell (and learned the slide named for him), but have never heard anyone else play like him. If I thought I had to play like Mary Bergin et al. I might lose hope!

[pancelticpiper]

The guy who taught me how to play flute, whistle, and uilleann pipes back in the 70s maintained that "Irish Traditional Music" was more about style and performance practice than it was about specific melodies.

To him, a performance of an Irish tune by a person with no understanding of traditional Irish style was NOT "traditional Irish music".

On the other hand, a performance of any tune whatsoever, be it a classical or pop tune, by a person imbued with the traditional Irish style and performance practices DID constitute "traditional Irish music".

To demonstrate, he played some classical piece (I don't recall what, perhaps Mozart) as a sean nos air. It was lovely, with all the features of the sean nos present.

I have performed an Appalachian air, Black is the Color, on the uilleann pipes using the sean nos style. (The tune is probably Irish or British in origin anyhow, but my source for the tune is from Appalachia.)

[Mr.Gumby]

So...if I'm picking up my tunes from Tradschool and Tradlessons...am I learning ITM?

That question opens the door to a discussion that, if pursued, will potentially give rise to all sorts of acrimony. Why would you even want to go there?

[Mockingbird]

Just like all newbies, I want to know I'm doing it right. I'm pretty much parroting right now, ornaments and all. Not sure how else to do it! Was pretty sure I'd hit upon good sources, but there nothing like reading the board to make you doubt. Still anxiously awaiting that Bill Ochs book.

In a folk tradition, isn't it the case that who "owns" the tradition are the "folks"? Which brings up the question what folks, since it can't be just any, and I don't know.

The folks who love it?

[benhall.1]

Just like all newbies, I want to know I'm doing it right. I'm pretty much parroting right now, ornaments and all. Not sure how else to do it! Was pretty sure I'd hit upon good sources, but there nothing like reading the board to make you doubt. Still anxiously awaiting that Bill Ochs book.

In a folk tradition, isn't it the case that who "owns" the tradition are the "folks"? Which brings up the question what folks, since it can't be just any, and I don't know.

The folks who love it?

Nah. The folks that already have it.

Joking apart though, there is this tendency for things to seem, to n00bs, more mysterious than they really are. The fact is that the tradition - including all of its style, and artistry - is in the hands of the people who are already accepted by people within the tradition. Hope that makes sense. It does after a while.

So, who are these people? I don't know. I could rattle off a list of names, but that wouldn't really be the point. There are people who definitely aren't "tradition-bearers" and there are people who definitely are - they'd be the ones in the category of "people already accepted" as in the paragraph above. And then there's the mass of great musicians who are way too many to name and who have a lot to offer.

I'm not sure you're "doing it right". I'm not sure one ever can. I for one will be learning until the day I die. That also applies to the many great musicians I know who are definitely part of "the tradition".

[hans]

@Ben: The only thing which is mysterious is that the folks here who profess to such a view as your stated do not want to say names of such "tradition bearers", even though they have a list of names in their mind. But why this reluctance? Is it that they fear they are not on the list of others? That would look a bit stupid, to discover that they are not part of the accepted force of trad bearers! So better not name names because otherwise feelings will get hurt. Fair enough!

But people who strive towards becoming better ITM musicians need to orientate themselves as to what directions their efforts shall go, so they need some shining lights from the Irish trad scene in who they can find inspiration. Nothing more. And that means some names.

My biggest inspiration from the Irish music scene is Martin Hayes, and from the Scottish music scene it is Chris Norman. The best teacher in a group setting I met was Niall Keegan, but I met very few. I'd have a flute workshop with him any time, even though he is regarded by some to be too maverick and jazzy in his style.

I can't understand why the folk here who hold ITM dear to their hearts do not come out with some positive examples, like youtube clips or some records, from people they regard highly. It is all about spreading inspiration. It is not about what is right, or who is not pure drop enough. Give good inspiration, and the rest will follow.

Of course, as MrGumpy said (and I likely misquote him), community is very important. Traditions live because of community. Good community is a place you can go and find inspiration, and it's a place which includes you, not want to fence you out. Probably the vast majority of all who felt touched by ITM and want to be part of it, even a little, by learning to play some of the music, do not have much supporting community of music and musicians, at least those outside Ireland.

So can this international online forum provide at least some aspects of a community which can inspire one to become better musicians, rather than being fobbed off or knocked or called this and the other?

To me an exclusive and secret list of who is "in" and who is "out" frankly stinks. And I think that is not the reality of tradition. A tradition which needs a reservation, a guarded zone, in order to stay pure, is in my mind not worth preserving. If it is truly alive, it does not need preserving. I guess others see that differently.