A modest proposal...

[Mockingbird]

Categorically ITM?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OT7_seLRx2o

[benhall.1]

@Ben: The only thing which is mysterious is that the folks here who profess to such a view as your stated do not want to say names of such "tradition bearers", even though they have a list of names in their mind.

Well, I suppose that might be true for some. I have no list. Mainly because I just don't think about it. I just know what's trad when I hear it. In the flesh. Sometimes tricky when it's on record - things get manipulated.

[benhall.1]

Categorically ITM?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OT7_seLRx2o

Another thing I've been thinking a lot lately. There was a time, not all that long ago, when this would just have been a non-question. The question would have been - "is it any good?"

I don't actually care whether anything is "authentic" or not. I just care if it's any good. Of course, it should conform in some way or other to the norms of whatever idiom it happens to be in. But if it's good, who cares?

I read somewhere not all that long ago a quote from an old singer talking about sean nós singing. The quote was something to the effect that, in his day, people never used that term. They just called it "singing". It rang true.


[edited to add] That clip of yours, Mockingbird, was great!

[hans]

@Ben: The only thing which is mysterious is that the folks here who profess to such a view as your stated do not want to say names of such "tradition bearers", even though they have a list of names in their mind.

Well, I suppose that might be true for some. I have no list. Mainly because I just don't think about it. I just know what's trad when I hear it. In the flesh. Sometimes tricky when it's on record - things get manipulated.

yet you just said:

So, who are these people? I don't know. I could rattle off a list of names, but that wouldn't really be the point. There are people who definitely aren't "tradition-bearers" and there are people who definitely are - they'd be the ones in the category of "people already accepted" as in the paragraph above. And then there's the mass of great musicians who are way too many to name and who have a lot to offer.

So you don't know and yet you can rattle of a list of names. And you are sure that people are or are not "tradition-bearers", definitely. But you don't know and have no list. Or you do but don't want to rattle it.

[Mr.Gumby]

Hans, why do you suggest anyone is trying to block out anyone else?

The Grumpy thing is a bit old by the way but I have indeed said things about community, people, places and how music is grounded in all of those. I have also said buying a whistle and lifting a tune out of a book or off the internet will not automatically make anyone part of a culture. There's legwork to be done, things to be learned and all that. Nobody can do that for you, there are no hand outs. Help and encouragement are freely given (in my experience) but can't be demanded. There's no instant gratification. Looking for lists or examples? Look at my first post to this thread, there's a start.

Ben has it right there, it's about good music, and another thing I said early on, the thing is, if you want to think like a 'traditional musician' you will have to seek out people who have music and learn the aesthetic, and learn to determine what's good and what isn't and above all why that is the case.

[benhall.1]

@Ben: The only thing which is mysterious is that the folks here who profess to such a view as your stated do not want to say names of such "tradition bearers", even though they have a list of names in their mind.

Well, I suppose that might be true for some. I have no list. Mainly because I just don't think about it. I just know what's trad when I hear it. In the flesh. Sometimes tricky when it's on record - things get manipulated.

yet you just said:

So, who are these people? I don't know. I could rattle off a list of names, but that wouldn't really be the point. There are people who definitely aren't "tradition-bearers" and there are people who definitely are - they'd be the ones in the category of "people already accepted" as in the paragraph above. And then there's the mass of great musicians who are way too many to name and who have a lot to offer.

So you don't know and yet you can rattle of a list of names. And you are sure that people are or are not "tradition-bearers", definitely. But you don't know and have no list. Or you do but don't want to rattle it.

No. I said "I could rattle off a list of names, but that wouldn't really be the point". I don't actually have such a list, so I can't. Not that it matters. Do you see the distinction?

[cross-post with Mr G]

[edited to add] ... and now that I've read Mr G's post, b***er me, but this last bit is spot on:

"it's about good music, and another thing I said early on, the thing is, if you want to think as a 'traditional musician' you will have to seek out people who have music and learn the aesthetic, and learn to determine what's good and what isn't and above all why that is the case."

[Mr.Gumby]

b***er me, but this last bit is spot on

And it's ground well covered, it was all already said on page 1 of this thread.

[benhall.1]

b***er me, but this last bit is spot on

And it's ground well covered, it was all already said on page 1 of this thread.

Yeah. I know.

[hans]

@Mr.Gumby: I did not write 'Grumpy', and I do not envisage you as such. I wrote 'MrGumpy', sorry!

"why do you suggest anyone is trying to block out anyone else?" I did not suggest such thing. I referred to Ben's list (which is not a list as such as I learned now) of people who are "tradition bearers" and people who are not.

Ben's post really freaks me a bit. So I apologise if I come over as a bit emotional!
I don't like clubs, and secret organisations give me the creeps. If there are indeed musicians who think themselves and their pals as accomplished ITM musicians and "tradition bearers" and judge others by standards they can't put into words, other than: "that is good ITM, this is not", or "it's in my bones, I feel it, I can't explain", then I am alarmed and uncomfortable. It is the irrational judging.

My brain hurts

[hans]

Just like all newbies, I want to know I'm doing it right. I'm pretty much parroting right now, ornaments and all. Not sure how else to do it!

Imitating is all fine to get you going. You learn tradition by immersion and absorption. But you also need to nurture your creativity by exploring other ways.

In a folk tradition, isn't it the case that who "owns" the tradition are the "folks"? Which brings up the question what folks, since it can't be just any, and I don't know.

The folks who love it?

The Irish people, if any, the people of Ireland. A folk tradition is a tradition of the people. They carry it through their culture, customs, way of life. The music is part of it.

I guess you wrote "own" tongue in cheek. Culture, traditional or otherwise, is not a commodity, and it cannot be controlled. But the Irish people have been very successful in exporting aspects of their culture, like their traditional music, and the Irish pub. Still, people in other countries picking up the music lack the cultural immersion and absorption, so even if they get very good at it, they will lack the cultural roots. But maybe that does not matter any longer, since globalisation is wiping out the roots of culture everywhere anyway. What will be left is the brand of ITM, a genre in the world music market.

[Mr.Gumby]

But maybe that does not matter any longer, since globalisation is wiping out the roots of culture everywhere anyway. What will be left is the brand of ITM, a genre in the world music market.

You may want to consider the possibility that there's a whole world of music and social interactions existing outside the realm of commercial recordings.

[DrPhill]

If there are indeed musicians who think themselves and their pals as accomplished ITM musicians and "tradition bearers" and judge others by standards they can't put into words, other than: "that is good ITM, this is not", or "it's in my bones, I feel it, I can't explain", then I am alarmed and uncomfortable. It is the irrational judging.

I share Hans' discomfort (though maybe not alarm). It was the feeling that there was some kind of judgement of ITM or not ITM that was going on which was not explained which prompted me to start this thread. Unlike Hans, I did not see it as a 'conspiracy' but a bit like the the 'hunting of the snark'. I suspect that there is no one definition of ITM, and that different groups of people are using it in different ways, but all assuming that they mean the same thing.

[***apologies if I caricature the argument slightly. It is a difficult topic and hard for me to be subtle as well as clear. I have aimed for harsh clarity, rather than muddled softness. I do not really see things as this black-and-white.***]

From an 'outsiders' point of view I see:
- no defined standard
- no definition of how the standard is defined
- no agreement over what is and what is not ITM
- an unwillingness to state any firm opinions (what is/is not, who is/is not)

E: That is not being played in an ITM style
N: What do I need to do to improve?
E: Listen to the experts.
N: Who are the experts?
E: The people who play genuine ITM
N: How can I tell that they are playing genuine ITM
E: They are playing in good ITM style.

Now, to someone trying to understand what ITM is (not trying to get a shortcut to proficiency, just trying to define ITM as a goal) this seems rather circular and defensive. Oddly enough, I can see how it looks completely sensible from the view of someone who understands ITM. The 'experts' are defined by the style, and the style is defined by the experts. That works well if we have an agreed list of experts, but different people have different lists, which means that we may not all be talking about the same style, group of styles, or whatever.

I must admit that I had given up about a page ago. Trying to pin down the meaning of term ITM seems a pointless exercise for me. I doubt that success would affect my life in any significant way - my listening and playing skills are insufficiently developed to benefit from the nuances.

I will go with Ben, it is about good music which is something that I can aspire to (or at least 'good' by my definition ). I will also say that folk like Ben and MrGumby amongst others have been (and I hope will continue to be) very helpful and inspirational in helping my whistling develop. I suspect that their grounding in ITM, whatever it is, forms a large part of expertise and enthusiasm to help the likes of me.

"They sought it with thimbles, they sought it with care;
They pursued it with forks and hope;
They threatened its life with a railway-share;
They charmed it with smiles and soap."

[DrPhill]

But maybe that does not matter any longer, since globalisation is wiping out the roots of culture everywhere anyway. What will be left is the brand of ITM, a genre in the world music market.

You may want to consider the possibility that there's a whole world of music and social interactions existing outside the realm of commercial recordings.

And it is the music outside the commercial world that really matters most. To me certainly. The commercial world wants me to be a passive consumer, and I want to be a producer as well...... (for rewards that are not financial).

[Mr.Gumby]

Phil, I think there's an element of caution. The question of what (or even worse 'who') falls within the boundaries of traditional, or even just 'good', music has lead to some pretty acrimonious discussions here in the past.

[DrPhill]

Phil, I think there's an element of caution. The question of what (or even worse 'who') falls within the boundaries of traditional, or even just 'good', music has lead to some pretty acrimonious discussions here in the past.

I understand, and that is possibly another symptom of the fact that the term ITM means different things to different people. It is not uncommon for a label to be used for related but different things, neither does it undermine the different ideas that are labelled, it just weakens the usefulness of the label a little. It also makes it a little more difficult for the uninitiated.

I certainly do not want to stir up acrimony on this forum. I started because some topics and some posters implied that there was something solidly definable as ITM, and I wondered if I could find out what. Naively I thought that maybe some of the competitions were the standards measurers, or definers, but no-one has mentioned them. My conclusion is that it is a rather nebulous overall concept, with more restricted meanings for individuals or groups of individuals. (When I get better at playing I may absorb some more of the 'feel' or ethos of the term, but for now I will just try to improve, taking advice from where I can.)