PVC flute building

[gregwhistle]

So, I've been playing, with decent beginner-ness, whistles. And built a couple of PVC whistles that actually sound nice. Or playable, anyway.

I'd like to build a PVC flute now, just to try the flute. At this point, I don't really care if it's any good, as long as it plays. Just to try it out.

So far, though, using plans I can find by web searching (such as http://www.cwo.com/~ph_kosel/designs.html), I'm 0 for 2. I can get no sound but my own wind, or at best some faint, ghostly, high harmonics.

So before I try to post a bunch of annoying measurements, pesky facts, etc. is there some obvious pitfall I should check first?

Keeping in mind, I have never played the flute, only the whistle, so I have no way to know if the problem is all me, or partly my construction errors?

I can certainly believe that it's mostly me, but having contorted my mouth into every shape and position possible, surely I can get some kind of note at some point?

[Steve Bliven]

Doug Tipple, a mainstay in these parts, has generously posted info for construction of pvc flutes here. Try comparing his instructions with what you have done on your own and see if there are any major differences.

Also try to get someone who can actually play a flute to try yours. If they can get a sound, then the problem may be your inexperience with the instrument. If they can't, then the problem is quite possibly in the instrument you constructed.

Ain't this fun?

Best wishes.

Steve

[skyspirit]

I agree with Steve. I built my first one from pvc according to Doug's instructions.

Once you build it, learn how to play it. By that I mean, learn how to make the emb. Not like a whistle. I am sure lots of others will weigh in on learning how to play. I got a teacher. Best advice I got from the forum. I am much further along than I would be otherwise.

Just my two cents worth.

[jemtheflute]

I second the above - even one lesson just on forming an embouchure makes a world of difference, especially if you are someone to whom it does not "come naturally". That said, if you can get a note blowing across the neck of a bottle, just transfer that technique to the flute's blow-hole.

I also second the advice to use Doug's resources. There is very little point making a PVC cylindrical flute without a wedge - it WILL be out of tune between the octaves. That makes no difference to making a sound on it, but as soon as you start to explore the scale and to overblow to the 2nd 8ve, it really matters not to have an extra intonation headache to b****r up your developing technique.

[Doug_Tipple]

I recommend Pete Kosel's online flutomat calculator.
http://www.cwo.com/~ph_kosel/flutomat.html
The one thing that you need to keep in mind as you use the calculator is that all of the numbers need to be in the same units. I fill in all of the necessary numbers in inches. I find the decimal numbers in inches for the hole positions to be awkward, so I convert the inches to millimeters with another online calculator. http://www.onlineconversion.com/length_common.htm

[gregwhistle]

The way my life in general is right now, I am not having flute lessons any time soon, unfortunately.

That said, if you can get a note blowing across the neck of a bottle, just transfer that technique to the flute's blow-hole.

That's the thing - I can. Neck of a bottle, heck, the end of a blank PVC pipe, sometimes. Or into/over a whistle chute (mouthpiece on my chin) to "play" quietly (soft and breathy, but notes nonetheless).

Almost anything, really, but not the two flute blow holes I've made on two different pipes (with somewhat different materials and IDs).


Would a smaller bore homemade PVC flute be any easier, to start with? High D "fife", say, instead of D flute? Or is that unlikely to make any difference?


===============================
Should I grab this (for, statistically speaking, no money), just to see if I can make any noise with it?

http://www.amazon.com/Yamaha-YRF-21-Fif ... B0002F5F9O

[david_h]

There are a lot variables. Buying flute from Doug would help you work on the ones that are to do with the player - you can't download a calculator for those.

[plunk111]

In another thread, I mentioned that I have built 2 PVC flutes using the black stuff that's been discussed. I used Doug's numbers and both flutes came out right on in pitch (better than other, MUCH more expensive flutes, actually). I found that the more attention you pay to the embouchure (before you drill any hole, btw) makes a huge difference. That said, the PVC flutes using the 3/8" embouchure hole size are decidedly more difficult to play than my "real" flutes (Gallagher and Copley). Also, make sure the cork seals perfectly (wine bottle corks work superbly).

I would recommend that you just follow Doug's directions and not worry about using a tuner or anything and then take it to someone that can play our beast (as mentioned above).

Feel free to PM me if you have any specific questions...

Pat

[Feadoggie]

Would a smaller bore homemade PVC flute be any easier, to start with? High D "fife", say, instead of D flute? Or is that unlikely to make any difference?

Nope, I'd recommend that you start with the low D flute or at least something like a G fife. The higher pitched flutes require a more focused embouchure and since that is what you are lacking at the outset you might be better served by going with a low D flute. Doug's design works. We've all made flute from his directions, I expect. Doug's done a great service to those, like yourself, that want to dive right into the flute and feel more inclined to make one before buying one. Hey, it's just a pipe with seven holes in it.

The embouchure hole is the real trick on a flute, as you might expect. While a hole drilled straight through the wall of the pipe will produce a sound, there are some additional sizing, shaping and finishing secrets (they're not really secrets) that will result in a more efficient embouchure hole. I'd suggest you google a bit to give yourself some background. Actually, a search of the board here will give you a lot to think about as would a search of the yahoo flutemakers site.

And I agree with david-h that buying one of Doug's flutes might be the most effective route to get started. Since you first have to learn how to develop an embouchure with your mouth you may as well do that on a flute that has a decent embouchure hole to begin with. And the tuning of a flute is very much tied to how you blow it. So, again, it might be better to start with a flute that has dependable tuning as you develop your skills. It could save you a lot of frustration. But I'd never suggest that someone not make their own flute.

Have fun making the flutes. Keep us posted on your progress.

Feadoggie

[gregwhistle]

The embouchure hole is the real trick on a flute, as you might expect. While a hole drilled straight through the wall of the pipe will produce a sound, there are some additional sizing, shaping and finishing secrets (they're not really secrets) that will result in a more efficient embouchure hole. I'd suggest you google a bit to give yourself some background. Actually, a search of the board here will give you a lot to think about as would a search of the yahoo flutemakers site.

Just signed up for the Yahoo group - thanks for the tip

This is going to sound stupid, but never having seen a flute close up, I am having a great deal of difficulty picturing the way the embouchure hole is cut. I have read the fine instructions you all have mentioned, but I am still not getting it. Searching for images I have not found one I can make out, either.

Is the "edge" or "blade" of the angle on the outside surface of the pipe ("undercutting" suggests this possibility), or on the inside surface? Or in the middle somewhere

Is a smaller embouchure hole easier for a novice fool to get a note out of, or a larger one?

[plunk111]

This is going to sound stupid, but never having seen a flute close up, I am having a great deal of difficulty picturing the way the embouchure hole is cut. I have read the fine instructions you all have mentioned, but I am still not getting it. Searching for images I have not found one I can make out, either.

To paraphrase Shakespeare, "Get thee to a flute person!" (or maybe a nunnery WOULD work - they might be fluters or flautists, too!)

[gregwhistle]

(or maybe a nunnery WOULD work - they might be fluters or flautists, too!)

[jemtheflute]

Simple enough. Undercut is an inward expansion - if you drill the hole perpendicular to the long axis of the bore, the walls of the hole have no undercut. File them away so that you do not enlarge the aperture on the outer surface of the head tube but you do enlarge the aperture into the bore, and you have undercut the hole.

No "blade" on a transverse flute embouchure, but the working edge (the one which splits the airstream directed at it) is the junction between the wall of the embouchure chimney (the hole) and the outer surface of the head tube on the side away from the player when the flute is held to the face in playing position.

I suggest that for your embouchure you drill a perpendicular 1cm hole and then use a small round file &/or sandpaper wrapped around a dowel to oval the hole by extending it about 1mm (no more) each way on the long axis of the flute, evening out the shape to an ellipse. Then use the same tools to undercut it a little all round - I hope you have a good eye - you need to keep things symmetrical. Try to keep the hole wall surfaces straight from top to bottom - it is rather easy to end up making them convex. Finish off with fine wet-&-dry paper wrapped around your dowel.

As for learning to blow it, smaller, higher pitched flutes do need better embouchure focus, but that's not such a bad thing - learn on one and you won't suffer from a sloppy embouchure on lower pitched, larger holed ones. However, it is probably best to stick to your (presumably) standard D size. If you are making it with a detachable, tunable head, do your initial lip training on that alone until you are getting a decent sound. If you are making a one-piece flute, don't try to play the lowest notes - they're hardest to get - start on BAG (1,2,3 finger notes). Use the forum search tool for tips on embouchure formation, playing long notes, etc. - they've been discussed umpteen times. (Denny can probably help! ). If you are struggling to get a sound on the full length tube but don't want to/can't make a tunable head, just make a dummy/practice head in a spare piece of tube about 20-30 cm long - pitch won't matter. You can use it as embouchure cutting practice too!

[Doug_Tipple]

No "blade" on a transverse flute embouchure, but the working edge (the one which splits the airstream directed at it) is the junction between the wall of the embouchure chimney (the hole) and the outer surface of the head tube on the side away from the player when the flute is held to the face in playing position.

Jem is right, of course, but the above reminds me of the Army marching instructions that were given to me for ROTC (reserve officer's training corp), required of all able-bodied men when I went to college. How could anyone do a proper column left march from written instructions like these? Monkey see, monkey do, seems a more fruitful way of going about cutting an embouchure. Using this method you need to find a well-cut embouchure and try to copy it. You will get better doing this with practice.

[Feadoggie]

Searching for images I have not found one I can make out, either.

It's just a pipe with holes in it. But some holes are "special" holes.

There are lots of embouchure hole photos on the web. Most are showing the external hole. That's helpful. Look at flute maker's sites like Terry McGee's, Dave Copley's, etc. A few diagrams will show the hole on profile. Check out the Yamaha site for different Boehm flute embouchure hole shapes. The general physics and geometries apply.

Jem provides a nice description. If you search through this forum you will find many descriptions from well known makers on how the shape their embouchure holes. The good stuff is here, really.

Doug brings up a good point. Kind of like Steve Martin's instructions for becoming a millionaire. "Step one: get a million dollars". So, back to your question. Step one: buy an Olwell flute. Check out his embouchure cut. Then try to re-create one yourself. I guess many of us started out making flutes after we had played flute for a while and had a few (or quite a few) examples to look at, copy and try to improve upon.

Feadoggie